Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

For the discussion of Shin Godzilla, the Godzilla anime trilogy, Godzilla Singular Point and Toho produced and distributed films after 2015. Includes US movies financed by Toho like Detective Pikachu.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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KK42 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:33 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:06 pm I'm also not convinced anyone is seriously arguing that there's some sort of "hypocrisy" for liking Shin at this point over 1998.
Ehh... I know a few individuals.
;)

I mean in general. Don't mean to invalidate your thoughts or opinions.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:41 pm
KK42 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:33 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:06 pm I'm also not convinced anyone is seriously arguing that there's some sort of "hypocrisy" for liking Shin at this point over 1998.
Ehh... I know a few individuals.
;)

I mean in general. Don't mean to invalidate your thoughts or opinions.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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Unrelated, and please don't go into specifics for those in the know, but Godzilla SP takes a lot of inspiration from Shin, and it's clear five years later that Shin will have a large impact on the franchise moving forward. For those looking for a "Shin Sequel", you'll be pleasantly happy with Godzilla Singular Point.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu May 06, 2021 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:50 pm Unrelated, and please don't go into specifics for those in the know, but Godzilla SP takes a lot of inspiration from Shin, and it's clear five years later that Shin will have a large impact on the franchise moving forward. For those looking for a "Shin Sequel", you'll be pleasantly happy with Godzilla Singular Point.
Oh boy... that is not a comforting notion...
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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KK42 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:50 am
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:50 pm Unrelated, and please don't go into specifics for those in the know, but Godzilla SP takes a lot of inspiration from Shin, and it's clear five years later that Shin will have a large impact on the franchise moving forward. For those looking for a "Shin Sequel", you'll be pleasantly happy with Godzilla Singular Point.
Oh boy... that is not a comforting notion...
I agree - it's a super duper amazingly comforting notion! :D
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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Vakanai wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:01 pm
KK42 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:50 am
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 10:50 pm Unrelated, and please don't go into specifics for those in the know, but Godzilla SP takes a lot of inspiration from Shin, and it's clear five years later that Shin will have a large impact on the franchise moving forward. For those looking for a "Shin Sequel", you'll be pleasantly happy with Godzilla Singular Point.
Oh boy... that is not a comforting notion...
I agree - it's a super duper amazingly comforting notion! :D
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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Allow me to re-state myself : Why are people okay with this version of Godzilla being super-slow and immobile and constantly spamming beams (at least in the final act), yet complain when that was the whole shtick of Heisei Goji?

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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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LegendZilla wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:02 pm Allow me to re-state myself : Why are people okay with this version of Godzilla being super-slow and immobile and constantly spamming beams (at least in the final act), yet complain when that was the whole shtick of Heisei Goji?
Because Shin's not fighting any other monsters.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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LegendZilla wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:02 pm Allow me to re-state myself : Why are people okay with this version of Godzilla being super-slow and immobile and constantly spamming beams (at least in the final act), yet complain when that was the whole shtick of Heisei Goji?
First off, he wasn't constantly spamming beams until the third act, and he never fought another monster. He was fighting humanity's forces and was in a feral panic, so he resorted to counteracting what he thought was going to be a repeat of the previous incident before it ever happened again. Heisei Godzilla, meanwhile, did indeed largely spam his atomic ray against the vast majority of his Kaiju opponents throughout the Heisei Era starting in GvB, all the way through GvD. There were some melee moments here and there, but most of the time it was the exact same flashy special effects for six darn movies straight, and with very little melee usage in all of those, it got redundant real fast. Shin was only in one movie and he had a fine balance of behavior throughout the film, and as a result it works.

Which leads to my second response. Second, Shin Godzilla being slow and sluggish, again, makes sense in this particular incarnation of the character in that he simply moves, looks and behaves like a realistic large reptile; one of many reasons he's my favorite Godzilla alongside the original. He doesn't lack a mindset or a personality, he just doesn't emote or behave in human-like ways that most other incarnations of Godzilla do, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually immensely refreshing to see an incarnation of the character that behaves and moves like a real reptile, as opposed to how many versions of the character are more human-like in their sentiments. There's nothing wrong with sapient Godzillas; I love Showa Godzilla immensely. It's just good to have diversity in the 60 plus year old collection.

But I must bring up a third statement, and this one is a question rather than a comment: why are you doing this? The reason I ask is because you seem to have done this exact same thing more than once: going onto the threads of certain Godzilla films held in high regards by many and proceeded to ask the question of "well if this movie is so great, how come 1998 gets sh*t on for doing something different while this movie that y'all love so much does something different?"

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to get a clear image of this so we can potentially come to an agreement on this without any unnecessary arguments to start. While I'm not assuming it's your intention by any means, the way this particular question has been posted on more than one thread more than once seems a little... ... ...confrontational, in ways.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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ShinGojira14 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:28 pm
LegendZilla wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:02 pm Allow me to re-state myself : Why are people okay with this version of Godzilla being super-slow and immobile and constantly spamming beams (at least in the final act), yet complain when that was the whole shtick of Heisei Goji?
First off, he wasn't constantly spamming beams until the third act, and he never fought another monster. He was fighting humanity's forces and was in a feral panic, so he resorted to counteracting what he thought was going to be a repeat of the previous incident before it ever happened again. Heisei Godzilla, meanwhile, did indeed largely spam his atomic ray against the vast majority of his Kaiju opponents throughout the Heisei Era starting in GvB, all the way through GvD. There were some melee moments here and there, but most of the time it was the exact same flashy special effects for six darn movies straight, and with very little melee usage in all of those, it got redundant real fast. Shin was only in one movie and he had a fine balance of behavior throughout the film, and as a result it works.

Which leads to my second response. Second, Shin Godzilla being slow and sluggish, again, makes sense in this particular incarnation of the character in that he simply moves, looks and behaves like a realistic large reptile; one of many reasons he's my favorite Godzilla alongside the original. He doesn't lack a mindset or a personality, he just doesn't emote or behave in human-like ways that most other incarnations of Godzilla do, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's actually immensely refreshing to see an incarnation of the character that behaves and moves like a real reptile, as opposed to how many versions of the character are more human-like in their sentiments. There's nothing wrong with sapient Godzillas; I love Showa Godzilla immensely. It's just good to have diversity in the 60 plus year old collection.

But I must bring up a third statement, and this one is a question rather than a comment: why are you doing this? The reason I ask is because you seem to have done this exact same thing more than once: going onto the threads of certain Godzilla films held in high regards by many and proceeded to ask the question of "well if this movie is so great, how come 1998 gets sh*t on for doing something different while this movie that y'all love so much does something different?"

I'm not angry, I'm just trying to get a clear image of this so we can potentially come to an agreement on this without any unnecessary arguments to start. While I'm not assuming it's your intention by any means, the way this particular question has been posted on more than one thread more than once seems a little... ... ...confrontational, in ways.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

Post by Tyrant_Lizard_King »

What is all this talk about Shin Godzilla being a weird or bizarre film? Shin himself may be a bit odd but the film itself is really pretty straightforward.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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Tyrant_Lizard_King wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 9:26 pm What is all this talk about Shin Godzilla being a weird or bizarre film? Shin himself may be a bit odd but the film itself is really pretty straightforward.
Yeah, though you and myself have beaten that horse to death. 1998 Is about what? Trying to find Godzilla and lure him out, before killing him through mundane methods.

Honestly though, it feels like when people talk about Shin being weird, they base it purely on their responses to concept art and/or other stuff, rather than realize the movie is pretty simple and has the exact same story beats as 54 and 84, two of the most respected entries in the franchise.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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LegendZilla wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 8:39 pm I remember a thread someone started around here discussing how this movie exposes a hypocrisy with this fandom. They addressed that people complained when GINO reproduced asexually in '98, yet Shin Goji does just that in the end of the movie and everyone was fine. In light of that, I want to give my two bucks in addressing a double-standard of the fandom of the fandom regarding this film.

For almost as long as I have dwelled the internet, I have seen most people zealously complain about how in the Heisei films, most kaiju, including Godzilla himself are overly bulky, immobile and constantly spam beams. Yet again, in Shin's case, those attributes apply just as much to its own version of Godzilla. Say what you will about the Heisei films, but at least in those films, Godzilla was given personality to make up for what those films' special effects which may not have aged well in your eyes.
I know you've posted about this again since, but I wanted to respond to this version of the post, since it's the one in which you specifically bring up the bizarre notion of hypocrisy.

I'm gonna focus on your second point, about the Heisei bulk/beam spamming, although the principles I'm applying here could also largely apply to the asexual reproduction subject.

So, first off, you're starting with the premise that Shin's fans and the people who complain about Godzilla's bulk and beam spamming in the Heisei series are essentially the same group. If these aren't by and large the same people, then the whole "hypocrisy" thing is a non-starter. So, are you confident that the two groups of people you're conflating are actually the same people?

I do think it's safe to assume there are at least some people who fall into both groups. And I still don't think those people are being hypocritical in the slightest. Let's dive deeper, shall we?

So, next up, these people need to specifically being saying that the Heisei movies are bad movies in large part because of Godzilla being bulky and beam spamming. If they like the Heisei movies despite this aspect, or if they dislike the Heisei movies but this is just one smaller factor in the bigger picture, then there's certainly no hypocrisy in their being willing to overlook the problem in Shin if they feel that it is in other respects a better movies/presentation of the character than the Heisei series. Many would argue that Shin has more incisive scripting, more dynamic direction, and better cinematography and editing than all or most of the Heisei movies; should they ignore all that to focus their assessments only on Godzilla's fighting style?

So, can we establish that there is a significant percentage of Shin lovers who would argue that Heisei Godzilla's bulk and beam spamming alone are sufficiently disastrous elements to significantly undermine a movie's quality regardless of any other aspects? That they are giving Shin a complete free pass on something that they would treat as unforgivable in another movie, regardless of any other factors?

We also have to consider context. As somebody else pointed out, Shin doesn't fight any other monsters. Shouldn't Godzilla's portrayal depend on the specific needs of the story? And, as such, isn't it perfectly reasonable for the "right" choice in one context to be the "wrong" choice in another? Godzilla's bulk/limited mobility and emphasis on his beam for combat isn't something people criticize in Return of Godzilla, for example, because the movie doesn't call for a more agile Godzilla, any more than Shin Godzilla does. In fact, Return's methodical, somber storytelling benefits from its big, lumbering Godzilla. On other hand, when a huge percentage of a movie's runtime is dedicated to monster-on-monster action, as in the case of Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla, kaiju that can engage in a wider variety of combat offer a clear advantage.

And there's the greater context of the movies surrounding them. Complaining about the redundancy/monotony of something that is a running aspect of 6 or 7 consecutive movies (depending on whether we talk about the Heisei series as a whole of just Kawakita's portion) does not mean that one cannot appreciate that same approach if it is an aspect of one movies, which comes out of an era when other productions are providing a wildly different take.

There's just no case to be made here for hypocrisy, except by distorting people's perspectives and willfully ignoring every bit of relevant context.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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ShinGojira14 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:28 pm It's actually immensely refreshing to see an incarnation of the character that behaves and moves like a real reptile
I'd actually argue he functions more like a giant whale than a reptile of any kind.

Reptiles typically react to everything around them, even larger ones are fast, agile, and alert. Also incredibly aggressive if they spot prey. Shin does none of this.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:05 am
ShinGojira14 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:28 pm It's actually immensely refreshing to see an incarnation of the character that behaves and moves like a real reptile
I'd actually argue he functions more like a giant whale than a reptile of any kind.

Reptiles typically react to everything around them, even larger ones are fast, agile, and alert. Also incredibly aggressive if they spot prey. Shin does none of this.
The reason he doesn’t react to much of humanity’s offensives for the first half of the film is because A: he isn’t in the same environment he’s used to. He’s on land, no longer in the deep sea where he originated from. B: he had evolved into his fourth form which was specifically meant to be immune to anything they would throw at him. So when they shot him and had no effect, he didn’t see any reason to view them as a threat. Though as they continued to fire at him, recall that he did eventually stop, turn around, and eventually kicked an entity bridge at them just to get them to finally stop.

And then they unleashed the MOP bombs on the back of his neck, and we all remember what happened from there.

Whales are indeed quite passive about certain animals being around them, you are correct there. But reptiles do have a certain chill attitude to other creatures around them as well; for example, crocodiles and alligators will let birds perch on their bodies—sometimes even their heads—for long periods of time with little to no reactions. I’ve seen them do this both in captivity and in the Everglades.

Also, do take note that Godzilla did have a fight or flight response in his third form when he stood off with the helicopters, clearly stopping and standing off with them similar to how a crocodile or alligator will freeze and fave a potential threat that’s across from them, but without directly attacking. It was after the ‘copters retreated and his temperature overheated that he finally bugged out and called it even.

You are correct that even large reptiles such as crocodiles and alligators can be fast and agile when they need to be. Though no reptile in the world is as absurdly massive or heavy as Godzilla is; his slow gait is merely a result of just how huge he is. And when crocodiles are not feeling hungry or threatened, they still move slow and sluggishly, just like Godzilla in the film.

And lastly, Godzilla never viewed anything as prey, so he had (at least until the atomic breath scene) no reason to be aggressive. The humans were just simply in his way as he moved about. He viewed them the same way a crocodile would view ants: just there.

Edit: I wish this site had like icons so I could like your post. I guess we just have different perspectives on the matter of a fictional giant monster now pushing 70 years old.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

Post by _JNavs_ »

ShinGojira14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:29 am
_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:05 am
ShinGojira14 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 7:28 pm It's actually immensely refreshing to see an incarnation of the character that behaves and moves like a real reptile
I'd actually argue he functions more like a giant whale than a reptile of any kind.

Reptiles typically react to everything around them, even larger ones are fast, agile, and alert. Also incredibly aggressive if they spot prey. Shin does none of this.
The reason he doesn’t react to much of humanity’s offensives for the first half of the film is because A: he isn’t in the same environment he’s used to. He’s on land, no longer in the deep sea where he originated from. B: he had evolved into his fourth form which was specifically meant to be immune to anything they would throw at him. So when they shot him and had no effect, he didn’t see any reason to view them as a threat. Though as they continued to fire at him, recall that he did eventually stop, turn around, and eventually kicked an entity bridge at them just to get them to finally stop.

And then they unleashed the MOP bombs on the back of his neck, and we all remember what happened from there.

Whales are indeed quite passive about certain animals being around them, you are correct there. But reptiles do have a certain chill attitude to other creatures around them as well; for example, crocodiles and alligators will let birds perch on their bodies—sometimes even their heads—for long periods of time with little to no reactions. I’ve seen them do this both in captivity and in the Everglades.

Also, do take note that Godzilla did have a fight or flight response in his third form when he stood off with the helicopters, clearly stopping and standing off with them similar to how a crocodile or alligator will freeze and fave a potential threat that’s across from them, but without directly attacking. It was after the ‘copters retreated and his temperature overheated that he finally bugged out and called it even.

You are correct that even large reptiles such as crocodiles and alligators can be fast and agile when they need to be. Though no reptile in the world is as absurdly massive or heavy as Godzilla is; his slow gait is merely a result of just how huge he is. And when crocodiles are not feeling hungry or threatened, they still move slow and sluggishly, just like Godzilla in the film.

And lastly, Godzilla never viewed anything as prey, so he had (at least until the atomic breath scene) no reason to be aggressive. The humans were just simply in his way as he moved about. He viewed them the same way a crocodile would view ants: just there.

Edit: I wish this site had like icons so I could like your post. I guess we just have different perspectives on the matter of a fictional giant monster now pushing 70 years old.
:lol: Yeah the big man is gettin old, but he ages like wine.

I see where you're coming from for sure, I think what would've sealed the deal for me personally, is if they had him actively bite into a train and ragdoll it or something. It wouldn't technically be "prey" but it'd show he still has some of that primal instinct (plus it'd be a nice 54 homage).

I can see the gator comparisons otherwise though.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

Post by ShinGojira14 »

_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:36 am
ShinGojira14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:29 am
_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:05 am

I'd actually argue he functions more like a giant whale than a reptile of any kind.

Reptiles typically react to everything around them, even larger ones are fast, agile, and alert. Also incredibly aggressive if they spot prey. Shin does none of this.
The reason he doesn’t react to much of humanity’s offensives for the first half of the film is because A: he isn’t in the same environment he’s used to. He’s on land, no longer in the deep sea where he originated from. B: he had evolved into his fourth form which was specifically meant to be immune to anything they would throw at him. So when they shot him and had no effect, he didn’t see any reason to view them as a threat. Though as they continued to fire at him, recall that he did eventually stop, turn around, and eventually kicked an entity bridge at them just to get them to finally stop.

And then they unleashed the MOP bombs on the back of his neck, and we all remember what happened from there.

Whales are indeed quite passive about certain animals being around them, you are correct there. But reptiles do have a certain chill attitude to other creatures around them as well; for example, crocodiles and alligators will let birds perch on their bodies—sometimes even their heads—for long periods of time with little to no reactions. I’ve seen them do this both in captivity and in the Everglades.

Also, do take note that Godzilla did have a fight or flight response in his third form when he stood off with the helicopters, clearly stopping and standing off with them similar to how a crocodile or alligator will freeze and fave a potential threat that’s across from them, but without directly attacking. It was after the ‘copters retreated and his temperature overheated that he finally bugged out and called it even.

You are correct that even large reptiles such as crocodiles and alligators can be fast and agile when they need to be. Though no reptile in the world is as absurdly massive or heavy as Godzilla is; his slow gait is merely a result of just how huge he is. And when crocodiles are not feeling hungry or threatened, they still move slow and sluggishly, just like Godzilla in the film.

And lastly, Godzilla never viewed anything as prey, so he had (at least until the atomic breath scene) no reason to be aggressive. The humans were just simply in his way as he moved about. He viewed them the same way a crocodile would view ants: just there.

Edit: I wish this site had like icons so I could like your post. I guess we just have different perspectives on the matter of a fictional giant monster now pushing 70 years old.
:lol: Yeah the big man is gettin old, but he ages like wine.

I see where you're coming from for sure, I think what would've sealed the deal for me personally, is if they had him actively bite into a train and ragdoll it or something. It wouldn't technically be "prey" but it'd show he still has some of that primal instinct (plus it'd be a nice 54 homage).

I can see the gator comparisons otherwise though.
That would’ve been a great homage to the 1954 film.

Sadly, he never got the chance to do it since the trains finally executed their 62 year-long plan of revenge. :lol:

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Also, I noticed that some of the original concept art pieces for Godzilla’s first form did look very whale-like in appearance. There was definitely a lot of wacky, cool concepts flying around at the time.
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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

Post by _JNavs_ »

ShinGojira14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:48 am That would’ve been a great homage to the 1954 film.

Sadly, he never got the chance to do it since the trains finally executed their 62 year-long plan of revenge. :lol:

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Also, I noticed that some of the original concept art pieces for Godzilla’s first form did look very whale-like in appearance. There was definitely a lot of wacky, cool concepts flying around at the time.
Yeah if he had evolved into a Godziplane, the trains would've never stood a chance :lol: :lol:

I believe this is unused concept art right? Wacky and cool indeed!

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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

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_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:57 am
ShinGojira14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:48 am That would’ve been a great homage to the 1954 film.

Sadly, he never got the chance to do it since the trains finally executed their 62 year-long plan of revenge. :lol:

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Also, I noticed that some of the original concept art pieces for Godzilla’s first form did look very whale-like in appearance. There was definitely a lot of wacky, cool concepts flying around at the time.
Yeah if he had evolved into a Godziplane, the trains would've never stood a chance :lol: :lol:

I believe this is unused concept art right? Wacky and cool indeed!

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I'm..... very glad that flying Godzilla didn't ACTUALLY fly in the final film although I love the scene where they are worried about him adapting to have that power.

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Re: Shin Godzilla - The General Discussion Thread

Post by Gawdziller1954 »

_JNavs_ wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:57 am
ShinGojira14 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 11:48 am That would’ve been a great homage to the 1954 film.

Sadly, he never got the chance to do it since the trains finally executed their 62 year-long plan of revenge. :lol:

Added in 1 minute 26 seconds:
Also, I noticed that some of the original concept art pieces for Godzilla’s first form did look very whale-like in appearance. There was definitely a lot of wacky, cool concepts flying around at the time.
Yeah if he had evolved into a Godziplane, the trains would've never stood a chance :lol: :lol:

I believe this is unused concept art right? Wacky and cool indeed!

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That's fanart.
OH NO, IT'S GAWDZILLER!! :D

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