LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Giratina93 »

Voyager wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:25 pm Really admiring the vast arguments and the amount of effort put into them. Kudos to both of you!
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Nagoda wrote: Let's see here, Gyaos not doing much damage. That I can agree with. Their beams will probably scatter across his skin like they do against G3 Gamera with how armored he is, but they could always sacrifice themselves by flying in close to his eyes. Although these are Hyper Gyaos, meaning they are both 88 meters tall. Nowhere does it say in the stats that these gyaos are of a smaller variety, just that they are Hyper Gyaos, and Hyper Gyaos are canonically 88 meters tall. They might get torn to shreds, but with them being almost the same size as Legendary and bigger than the Male MUTO, they could probably just lift him into the air and drop him, or attempt to tear into him giving their other allies valid openings considering the Gyaos can be very annoying when they want to be. They might not do much damage, but they'll annoy the hell out of Godzilla and make up for Iris's Aggression with their own.
As hilarious as the mental image of the Hyper Gyaos picking up LPG and dropping him Showa Rodan style is, that's just not in their wheelhouse on how they fight. Not just Hyper Gyaos specifically, but any Heisei Gyaos just doesn't fight in that manner. Hyper Gyaos fly around and bombard their target, and against LPG, it just won't be enough, and if they dare fly in close, LPG WILL slaughter them since they just aren't as durable as even the Male Muto was...
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Giratina93 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:56 am
Nagoda wrote: Let's see here, Gyaos not doing much damage. That I can agree with. Their beams will probably scatter across his skin like they do against G3 Gamera with how armored he is, but they could always sacrifice themselves by flying in close to his eyes. Although these are Hyper Gyaos, meaning they are both 88 meters tall. Nowhere does it say in the stats that these gyaos are of a smaller variety, just that they are Hyper Gyaos, and Hyper Gyaos are canonically 88 meters tall. They might get torn to shreds, but with them being almost the same size as Legendary and bigger than the Male MUTO, they could probably just lift him into the air and drop him, or attempt to tear into him giving their other allies valid openings considering the Gyaos can be very annoying when they want to be. They might not do much damage, but they'll annoy the hell out of Godzilla and make up for Iris's Aggression with their own.
As hilarious as the mental image of the Hyper Gyaos picking up LPG and dropping him Showa Rodan style is, that's just not in their wheelhouse on how they fight. Not just Hyper Gyaos specifically, but any Heisei Gyaos just doesn't fight in that manner. Hyper Gyaos fly around and bombard their target, and against LPG, it just won't be enough, and if they dare fly in close, LPG WILL slaughter them since they just aren't as durable as even the Male Muto was...
Yeah they won't be lifting him up anytime soon, but they will annoy him enough to get his attention. and any time spent killing them, even if it is just a brief snap of their necks in a couple seconds, is still enough time for Legion to miss her beam and strike the horizon.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Zasraniec »

Considering how Godzilla bull rushes and ragdolls Muto Prime, those feats are much more impressive than any strength feat from anyone in the team. They definately prove he can and will overpower whoever he gets his claws on. Legion's melee capability is miniscule compared to Monterverse Kaiju. She'd get desecrated in short order.
Godzilla got absolutely clobbered by MUTO Prime though so I don't think that is a strong argument. Not only that but it they have some similarities to Legion that even Kaneko noted so if anything I think this goes in Legion and maybe even Iris' favor here. I don't think Legion's melee isn't poor and this clip shows why. To avoid spam I will just add the link without embedding:
https://youtu.be/ACa5FF0Qm6o?t=338

Oh right around this mark Legion's physical strength is shown. Easily shown to toss Gamera like a ragdoll. Now that's not to say she'll do exactly as good as Gamera against Godzilla but I think you are underestimating her strength a bit here. The military also seems to realize that Legion was in a very dominant position and could possibly kill Gamera right here so notice how a few seconds afterwards they decide to assist Gamera. Skip to about 8:40. That is about where Gamera rips off her horn. It only takes twenty seconds for Legion to come back with a vengeance. My question is do you really think Godzilla can down two Gyaos and Iris in twenty seconds? I really don't see how. I'll get to Godzilla's fighting feats in a second though.
Godzilla was notably dominating the melee fight against Ghidorah in the artic, that and he can actually run. Something that neither Iris or Legion seem to do, he's definitely faster than both of them on the ground. Most of the time Gamera was simply pushing, when I say fight back I mean when he actually attacked. Like his elbow spike slash and ripping off her horn. Those were the severe injuries that Gamera left, injuries that Godzilla can exceed rather easily.

Godzilla is both stronger and more ferocious than Gamera, he's gonna keep up the mauling the whole time. Legion isn't fighting an opponent whos just gonna be pushing her, she's gonna be getting mauled by a melee savage.
Huh? Godzilla was getting crushed. He literally only got one hit in at that was at the very beginning where he bites and slams Ghidorah's head on the ground:
https://youtu.be/hCo2S76m57Y

Not only that but Ghidorah sent Godzilla to the floor not once but twice. If you are loose with the word knock down maybe even three times when Ghidorah first zaps Godzilla and he kneels but doesn't fall. So if Godzilla was this crazy kung fu ninja you are depicting him ass why was Ghidorah basically laughing at him the whole time? Why did Godzilla require a power up to be any good in the Monsterverse? Don't get it mistaken I think supercharged Godzilla is fairly powerful but pre supercharge he leaves a lot to be desired. He loses pretty much every fight one on one unless it is just a lone male or female MUTO and even then it is because the two are natural rivals so that makes it even less impressive if you ask me. Although I guess if you want to argue that it is more impressive that is sound and can definitely be done also.
Her neck is still right there.

I don't know if she even eats. She might but I wouldn't be able to tell ya.
Eh this isn't even too important anyway. So I'll just go the quicker route and say you might be right here.
I recall them bleeding out when they were shot in unarmored parts.
You recalled correctly but watch the first clip again at around 7:15. The soldier fired nine rounds at the creature and a lot of them were at weaker areas that weren't as armored. Now I am no gun expert but needless to say if any animal that size got popped nine times with a handgun in weaker areas they'd probably die before the first half dozen. Especially if we take into account most of those shots were in the head or neck. That says a lot about the species' defensive capabilities.
Here's the thing though, you claiming that she was toying with him seems like a passive admittal that her performance was over all unimpressive so you want to use that as an excuse to afford her extra competence in the name of "she's not toying around anymore".

First of all, you're gonna have to prove that she was legitimately toying rather than just make the claim. I mean solid proof, like how Godzilla was toying with Kong, that has proof from the director and with Godzilla intentionally whiffing would be kill shots.

You need some really good evidence to prove that she fights better when not toying, and to prove that she was doing that to begin with.
I already stated my evidence though. The first time there was a flower that was gonna blow up. The second time there was not. There was no urgency to finish off Gamera quickly. No hard evidence was given with Godzilla sparing Kong either or else Wingard wouldn't have felt it necessary to include that.
Proof?

When ever Gamera legitimately attacked he ripped into her. Godzilla is gonna be attacking non stop, she's not gonna hold out long at all. What Gamera did to her in melee is proof enough.
I think I explained Legion's durability well enough. So let's focus on Godzilla a bit more. Let's see how well Godzilla does against two opponents. That's right two and these two from my end don't look anywhere near as powerful as the opponents in this match especially when the 2v1 is doubled to 4v1. I have a question though. Do you at least concede that if this match gave the Legion the swarm ability that Godzilla would lose because he lacks a pulse wave unless his plates are shattered?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYQs2953BP0

Godzilla isn't attacking nonstop. Generally he does 1v1 but once the tag team begins he loses focus on who he should be attacking. Look how easily he gets overpowered and knocked down by two creatures. The male Muto isn't even that large. This one sided beatdown is really only matched by Mechagodzilla in GvK. Iris and Legion alone could lay him flat by greatly exceeding that standard. Without military intervention it looks like from my end not only was Godzilla going to lose but he very well could have gotten killed. I don't see a single second in this fight of Godzilla seamlessly kung fuing both MUTOs and killing them within seconds. You mentioned proof, so where is the proof that Legion and Iris in of themselves couldn't do this to Godzilla? Especially when you take into account how puny the male MUTO really is.
Sure numbers matter, but only when the members are worthwhile.

The Gyaos aren't gonna be doing much of anything in terms of damage. Sure they're gonna attack, but they lack the damage output to stop Godzilla from killing Legion. By the time he's done, he'll be fine, they can't do much to him.

Iris on the other hand canonically lacks aggression to a crippling degree. Seriously, anyone who claims that Iris is gonna jump into the fray is portraying a different character entirely. Lets go over what happened before Iris threw hands(spears?) with Gamera.

First Gamera bull rushes Iris in the sky. Biting into his neck and then attempts to saw him in half. Iris sits there and lets this happen for well over 10 seconds before he decides to fight back.

So already, despite being directly attacked, Iris retaliates with the timing of an old dementia patient.

So when Iris gets Gamera off him, what next? Surely he'd retaliate again now that he has a wide open opportunity to rush in and at least incapacitate his foe right? No, he flies off and it's only due to the military throwing Gamera off course that he gets away. If he was legitimately aggressive and smart, he'd have offed what amounts to a determined threat to his life. But he didn't, he's too passive and too stupid.

What happens next? Iris lands, Gamera dive bombs with fire and fury, and Iris deflects the would be kill shots. What happens when Gamera lands, rather slowly and dramatically? Iris sits there and watches. He watches as the creature who just took a bite into his neck, attempted to saw him in two, followed him despite getting stabbed into, and now just tried to incinerate him slowly makes his landing.

At this point Iris should have just fired his sonic cutters at the throat and been done with it. This monster pursuing him wants him dead and will not take no for an answer, no matter how painful. It should have occurred to Iris to take his big and obvious shot. What did he do?

Silently stare as his would be(only due to his incompetence) grim reaper aggressively roars at him. He only responds verbally when he's roared at for a second time. He should have taken the shot at this point, anyone with half a functioning brain would have, but no. He instead lets Gamera walk up to him and start throwing hands. Even then Iris doesn't physically respond until Gamera strikes first.

Do you see what I'm talking about when I say that Iris is cripplingly passive? He does the equivalent of an armed hiker letting a mountain lion who he's previously shot in self defense twice waltz up to him after a third violent encounter. What kind of idiot would let this happen? Iris, Iris would let such events happen, and he'd sit and watch the whole time.

In this matchup, Iris is that guy who'd be just at home in r/donthelpjustfilm. He'd happily just sit there and watch as Legion gets mauled and Gyaos get shot out of the sky, and he wouldn't give a single poop until Godzilla bull rushed him. And even then his response is gonna be less than savage, it certainly wasn't that much against Gamera.
I am not saying your points aren't valid or anything but let's take a look at the actual fight rather than describing it. The clip doesn't show the little skirmish in the air but seeing how Iris had no problems quickly attacking the jets and that Gamera was shot out of the sky by the military rather than Iris there really isn't much to say other than Iris is more aggressive than you paint him out to be. Anyway now for the clip:
https://youtu.be/aCDNiTshovA?t=141

I skipped the first two minutes or so because they pretty much just stare each other down but feel free to watch from the beginning if you want. Anyway I talked about Godzilla and Legion's fighting style so now it is Iris's turn. How does Iris fight? Does he really just stand there like you are saying? I don't think he does to tell you the truth. Right from the start they are just grappling. Unlike Legion, Gamera at first appears to be holding his ground but Iris eventually overpowers him. You asked for proof, so I think this combined with Legion shoving Gamera easily is more than enough proof to show they have the physical strength just as a duo to floor Godzilla. Especially when shown how easily one monster (Ghidorah) was able to do that without any assistance at all. Combined with how Iris treated the jets it appears that Iris is more than happy to attack someone that appears to be threatening.

Anyway the fight is far from over! At about 3:20 Iris easily pierces Gamera's shell. The smaller male MUTO was able to pierce the tougher Godzilla's hides so given the strength I have shown they have Godzilla is going to be kebab for dinner. Iris seems pretty good at pinning his impaled victims. Now while I think he is far from able to kill Godzilla this way even without Gyaos assistance and just Legion's I think they can at the very least KO Godzilla with little trouble. The fight isn't really shown in any great detail until about 12:00 or so when once again Iris effortlessly skewers him. At about 13:05 Iris shows an ability I think could be powerful against Godzilla. Sapping his energy. A similar mechanic was shown to be effective against Godzilla when he was supercharged against Ghidorah in Boston. This is yet another nail in Godzilla's coffin. So until around 14:05 Gamera was again had to pull out a deux ex machina with his plasma fist. Something Godzilla before his supercharged state has nothing close to. So that is not one but two opponents Gamera required a super weapon to defeat. Now to be fair I think we agree generally speaking Godzilla is more powerful than Gamera but at this stage he lacks offensive weaponry outside of his beam, which Iris could probably sap away anyway. Godzilla is by far superior in melee and durability but lacks firepower compared to Gamera's superweapons.

If you want a tldr version to put it shortly, Iris is not this passive gentle creature that will let Godzilla roll over him either. He doesn't require much provocation and when he gets that provocation he is absolutely merciless just like the rest of his team.
yaos isn't gonna be inflicting much damage if any. Even if they distract Godzilla long enough for Legion's whips to com out, so what? It took her at least a minute between the time she got up and the time that she fired to whips at Gamera. Godzilla's gonna immediately go back to ignoring the small none threats in favor of taking out the big one. Legion's gonna get fried at this point. And that's assuming that Godzilla doesn't double tap to make sure that she's thoroughly dead, and btw it's within his character to make sure that an opponent who he wants dead is actually dead. This scenario is unlikely, but still gonna go favorably for Godzilla.
From the Legion clip it only took Legion twenty seconds to recover from a dismembered horn. Certainly shorter than what it took a post supercharged Godzilla to recover from a KO from Kong. Other than that though I don't disagree with Gyaos. I don't think it is necessary to link the clip from his movie yet anyway because what you said more or less pretty much sums up how Gyaos will be in this fight. More of a distraction than anything. However I think as shown with the MUTO clip a few brief seconds of distraction could prove to be fatal against Godzilla.
It doesn't take much intelligence to stay away from something that she knows is essentially a massive bomb. Certainly not enough to prove that her fighting style is going to massively improve here compared to how it was in the movie.
It does show she at least knows her own species and how to best use each member of her species. Could you perhaps at least give her credit for that? I am not saying nor did I ever say Legion is Einstein, but I don't think she is Megalon either.
Considering that Godzilla instantly followed up a claw strike with a tail slam, he definitely has the reflexes.

It's as simple as reaching out and grabbing something that, while flailing, is not moving around. He's definitely stronger than it. It's not gonna be difficult in any sense.
I can bring the clip if needed by when Godzilla gives the killing blow to the male MUTO, the MUTO is flying towards Godzilla with no strategy or attempt to change course. After seeing Godzilla's facial expression it is clear he was thinking how he should deal with it. The MUTO made a predicable attack and Godzilla had time to counter it with a fatal tail bash. He does not have the luxury of idly thinking in this fight. His opponents are too merciless.
I already said that the beams can do minor damage, but that's it. They're ignorable, and Legion could suffer a case of friendly fire.
Yeah the beams aren't going to do much harm to Godzilla. I don't think they'd be ignorable though. I am not saying friendly fire is impossible but that is very unlikely and given how each member in the team has a very good instinct for killing I think they are competent enough to actually hit who they want to hit. This isn't beam dodging Showa Godzilla or anything either. Monsterverse Godzilla as shown in the clips is generally pretty slow before he got supercharged. He can get to decent speeds at points but nothing that will let him dodge ranged attacks from multiple angles. If he had that capability he would have done much better against the 2v1 MUTO fight.

I'll put it like this.

According to your logic, because it would take a few seconds for this absolute monster of a flamethrower to destroy me:
That's a strawman. Fire on a human is nothing compared to plasma against a fictional space creature.
See what I mean? Lasting a few seconds but still getting deleted doesn't prove much. Especially when Godzilla's atomic breath is absurdly hot.
I go into further detail here:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... t-77440771

Honestly, I don't think any of the Kaiju her are gonna take a blast from Godzilla's atomic breath. It's gonna spell doom for whoever it hits. Especially since Godzilla's slow charge time only occurs when he's all tired, like in 2014. It's not gonna happen here, he's actually quite fast with it outside of that.

If Godzilla and Legion where about to fire their respective beam weapons, Godzilla's gonna beat her on the draw.
I do not agree with this. If Legion can survive the mana beam for a few seconds and Iris can survive a plasma fist in the gut for a few seconds then they will do fine against Godzilla's beam. Especially since Legion and Iris are both shown to be able to absorb energy attacks. As I said before both of Gamera's super weapons are far more dangerous than pre supercharged Godzilla's mediocre beam. If you watch the arctic fight scene with Ghidorah again it takes Godzilla's beam a few seconds to charge. It also does when Godzilla uses it against the female MUTO as well.
Again, this only applies to him when he's tired. He's not tired here, he can freely blast his atomic breath at airborne nuisances.
Sounds to me like Godzilla has a fatigue problem then. You don't think fighting all of these opponents will tire him out at all? What about the arctic fight with Ghidorah? He was pretty well rested then.
Already addressed this. Godzilla's beam is arguably the strongest one on the field.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BB2HBhR-bA
Demonstrably false.
You have no proof that the Mutos are weaker. If anything, they're the stronger ones, as they have the strength feats of throwing around Godzilla. None of the other Kaiju here have strength feats up to par with that.

Gonna have to provide evidence rather than falsely label the Mutos as weaker.
I pointed the evidence of the physical strength of Legion and Iris out in both respective Gamera clips. Not only that but I point you to Ghidorah vs Godzilla. Yet another creature that threw around Godzilla. MUTO Prime as well. Even a member of Kong's species beat Godzilla by himself! Godzilla sure requires a lot of outside aid to win his fights. Especially before the supercharge. So why shouldn't I apply Occam's Razor and naturally assume because solo kaiju have no problem throwing down Godzilla why shouldn't two kaiju be able to if they were able to solo down a kaiju that isn't as large as Godzilla but roughly in the same ballpark? While Godzilla was surely weaker when he fought that member of Kong's species, it says a lot about his power limitations. If you can't beat an overgrown ape with no real special abilities then you aren't this kung fu god that can crush all of Gamera's villains with minimal effort.
Legion can't hit poop with her beam. It's also not gonna be as effective on Godzilla as it was against Gamera.
This is true. Although Godzilla does lack flight and flying was critical in one instance of Gamera avoiding a beam as shown in the earlier clip. While I also agree Godzilla can probably withstand it better, what if Iris skewered him? How can he avoid it then? He won't.
The blast that he forgets about the moment his feet touch the ground?

They aren't coming into play either.
Well Iris wanted to get to Ayana who was on the ground. With that in mind, what is stopping Iris from taking to the air now? This fight didn't mention anything about him chasing his human link.
The "feats" of them getting maimed by a physically less powerful Kaiju? If anything, that proves how badly they would get wrecked by Godzilla. I never even mentioned martial arts. What?

I'll put it like this, Godzilla is aggressive as all hell. He rushes into melee with savagery and happily rips in. Legion and Iris primarily just push their enemies in melee. Not a threatening melee strategy, especially when Iris isn't gonna be doing anything until engaged. I explained the Iris thing above.

The only guys on the Deiei team who fight with anywhere close to even half the savagery Godzilla brings are the Gyaos, and they're not strong enough to try their luck against Godzilla up close. And they don't seem to like melee anyway.
Well I guess you got me on a technicality with the martial arts. Yes Godzilla doesn't do literal martial arts but my point of him not being a melee god is sound. Not saying he isn't great at melee, but he does have weaknesses and all of his opponents at some point or another exploited them. Iris and Legion from what the clips have shown sure seem to be a lot tougher than individual MUTOs. The only kaiju Godzilla fought that was comparable to them was Ghidorah and maybe Mechagodzilla. Although Godzilla lost far more fights with both than he won.
He'd only do that if he sensed it. An aggressive extraterrestrial (Legion) is more viable to set him off. Further supporting my stance that Legion is gonna get targeted first.

So, you're gonna have to prove that team Deiei has strong enough weaponry and good enough tactics. As they stand, they're tactically inept and lack strong enough weapons. And melee is just not their strong suit. Godzilla aught to clear here.
Given that Mechagodzilla was a creation of man and Godzilla spent all of his time and effort into hunting in only stopping to fight Kong I think disproves this. If he despises man-made kaiju, why not the man-made kaiju of Atlantis? Well I did prove that Godzilla has lost 1v1 battles so why should I have to prove tactics? Tell ya what I'll "prove" their tactics when you disprove Godzilla losing 2v1 to the MUTOs in the earlier clip. If anything the burden of proof is on you here because we've seen how Godzilla handles multiple opponents but not Gamera's opponents teaming up. So if anything you should be disproving how Legion and Iris simply can't do what the MUTOs did and that is simply attack at the same time.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Godzilla2020 »

Alright, before I get into picking apart certain points, first things first I gotta address the big things. Namely, what's being said in favor of both the Gyaos and Iris.

I'll start with Gyaos.

A lot of what you're saying about them is, to put it bluntly, fan fiction tier. They despise melee, they fight from the sky by shooting their target. To put it into perspective, just look at how they felt like dealing with Gamera. They just stuck to the sky and kept shooting, they didn't dare engage him in melee even though with their size and numbers they may hypothetically be a threat. In comparison Godzilla is physically stronger, faster on his feet, more durable, more ferocious, biigger, and more physically imposing than Gamera. That last part is extremely important, if the Gyaos deemed Gamera too threatening to engage tooth and claw, than they'll sensibly think the same about Godzilla to an even greater extent. That and their claws aren't gonna be doing anything here. Remember back in the first Heisei Gamera movie? Even back then Gyaos' talons were notably ineffective against Gamera's scales. And the Hyper Gyaos seemed to have evolved less than Gamera did between his first and third Heisei movie. There's no reason to assume that their talons would be useful here either. Essentially it's this:

Godzilla's Durability > Gamera's Durability > Gyaos' Talons

Not that it matters, they simply don't like engaging in melee.

Also, looking at your analysis of Iris' behavior, I realized something. Iris is an even bigger dumbass than I thought.
Nagoda wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:31 pm As for Iris, I'm really starting to get annoyed by how much you point out his lack of aggression with Gamera. It's almost as if Gamera was barely doing poop to him with his attacks and Iris had more important things to do than stop to fight someone who was barely even hurting him, a creature that was born just weeks prior. It's also almost as if his goal to finally fuse with the human who was torn out of him pre-metamorphosis took higher priority than fighting a large turtle whose attacks didn't really do anything to him and wasn't really much of a threat in the moment.
So first you make the claim that Iris had better things to do, which is rather damning in terms of intelligence considering what he ended up doing. You also claim that Gamera was hardly doing shit to him, hense his lack of reaction.

Bullshit.

When Gamera first bit Iris, he went from passive flying, to booking it at top speed. You don't just run away after getting bit and desperately try to avoid someone if the attack didn't hurt. Then Gamera does the shell razor attack. Iris' reaction here further destrys your "he wasn't doing shit to him" claim. Gamera is essentially running a flaming buzz saw into his chest, Iris then retaliates with the strongest weapon in his arsenal.

Put two and two together, you wouldn't shoot a little kid for stepping on your foot. But you sure as hell would if said kid was actively stabbing you. Iris responded so extremely because what Gamera was doing hurt like hell.
Too passive and too stupid? Iris was not going to waste time searching for his priestess again after losing her once. He knew where she was and he was determined to get to her before she disappeared again. Yes you could argue why he didn't just kill Gamera then go, but is the movie called Iris? No, it's called Gamera, meaning he's got plot on his side. And again, him easily deflecting the fireballs proves that Gamera wasn't much of a threat in the moment if Gamera's most useful attack could be thrown away like a toy. Again you state that he just lets Gamera walk up to him and only attacks when hit first. When someone weaker than you starts attacking, of course you are going to attack, or you are going to be like those cocky fighters who let their opponents get some hits in to show how useless their attacks as you walked through them. In this case, Iris choose the latter. And what did he do after immediately knocking out Gamera? Go right back to his main priority of get Ayana.
I get that movies involving a hero fighting a stronger villain head on usually have to dumb down the villain so the hero can win. But Iris is an example of this trope taken to the extreme, to the point that the villain's stupidity damn near neutralizes the sense of dread brought by his power. Just because Gamera had plot armor doesn't invalidate how the plot went, and the plot make Iris dumb.

So now you make the claim that Iris deflecting Gamera's plasma blasts were done just because "suck it inferior turtle"? Uh, no. Iris deflected them for the exact same reason that you or me would jump behind cover if either of use heard gun shots near by. We later see that the power of only a few plasma blasts thoroughly desecrated Iris. His insides were either vaporized or just splattered everywhere. Even his armor was annihilated, with his skull/helmet having lost so much structural integrity that Gamera crushed it by merely stepping on it.

The plasma fist isn't much stronger than a typical plasma blast, it just has more penetration power. If a single hit from the plasma fist could do that to Iris, than the bombardment that Gamera launched would have ended both the plot and Iris' life had he not deflected it.

Or course if someone pointed a gun at you and you had a bullet proof shield, you'd pull it up. That doesn't prove that you can tank getting shot.

Another thing, you may or may not be aware of this, but your really making Iris look bad. First you emphasize that he has to hurry to get the one he wants to fuse with. And then you describe him letting his opponent walk up to him and land the first hit to show off superiority.

So from Iris' POV: "Alright, I made it and I'm finally going to fuse and become complete, and I don't have a second to lose. Nothing can ruin thi-it's that damn turtle again. Doesn't he know when to give up? I know he tried to kill me twice, and again just now. I could just slice his throat and be done with it, especially when he's just standing there and roaring at me. So, should I just kill him and keep goin? I'm in a hurry......No, I'll get into an extended wrestling match with him instead."

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Just...why? How can he be so stupid?

So he's in a massive hurry to get to his fusion target, but he whiffs this in favor of fighting something that you said he doesn't have time to fight? And worse, he makes it an extended, drawn out fight where he can kill his opponent in a million different ways and finish it there. But he literally drags his persistent problem to his goal, knowing that Gamera could just kill her instead and solve the problem like that?

No matter how you slice it, Iris has the tactical ability of a potato. He's known as a dumbass for a reason, that reputation didn't just appear out of thin air.
But let's say he has that crippling passiveness you say he has. Now let's go by the assumption that for this battle, Ayana told him to Kill, or he is acting under the orders of Kill. The moment he was told to kill, he started attacking like the good evil pet he was, and immediately stabbed Gamera in the chest, then continued on with his goal of get Ayana to fuse with him while dragging Gamera with him on his spear. And yes, while he didn't kill Gamera, he did incapacitate him and sucessfully go through with his main priority of fusing with Ayana, meaning he was successful in his mission. If we go off the assumption he was ordered to kill in this fight, he's going to be walking toward Godzilla to start stabbing him. While Godzilla will immediately beat him in Melee, it would still allow Legion to then come in with her own attacks and the Gyaos with their petty scratches. Iris is not going to be just standing there doing nothing, because if we go by your Passive doing nothing bullshit, then the first thing Iris is going to do in this fight is turn around and fly to wherever Ayana is, leaving his allies to their deaths while he goes to become complete.
Even when he's told to kill, he stabs the stomach. A stab wound there is survivable by humans, even regular reptiles can take that, let alone a super reptile like Gamera. If that's his definition of kill on such a foe, than that just re affirms his glaring stupidity.
And if we go by he is fused with Ayana, that just throws the passive bullshit before that out the door. Once he fused with Ayana, he was immediately stabbed by Gamera. How this happened you may ask? A scene prior in the film perfectly explains this. Fusing with Ayana takes time and energy, and that time is usually spent with Iris being still. Otherwise, Baby Iris would have just stabbed that boy in the chest and take back Ayana to fuse with her. If we go by after the fusion, Iris actively attacks his enemies. He stabs Gamera's hand and starts to absorb his blood to then use his enemy's power against them. But the problem with doing so here is that it'll probably fuel Godzilla if he uses Atomic Rays against him. If he is trying to stab Godzilla in this moment, I don't think Godzilla is going to just let him attack while he focuses on Legion. He's going to fight back, thus freeing up Legion.
You say "bullshit" like his reputation of being passive came from no where, it didn't.

But lets say that he's already fused and is aggressive. So what? he's painfully slow and his weaponry doesn't have what it takes to be very effective on Godzilla. The only reason that he could so cleanly stab Gamera was due to the latter conveniently standing almost perfectly still. Godzilla isn't gonna be still at all, and he's even tougher. Approaching him to stab at any angle leaves Iris liable to get maimed. Whether it be by tail slams or head on melee, where he would get smashed.

Since this thing is still going, might as well hop back into the conversation.
Godzilla2020 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:07 pm
Godzilla was notably dominating the melee fight against Ghidorah in the artic, that and he can actually run. Something that neither Iris or Legion seem to do, he's definitely faster than both of them on the ground.
He was dominating in the melee fight yes, but a single blast of a gravity beam knocked him on his ass immediately after that brief Melee clash. Not going to say Legion''s beam will kill him in a single hit, but it'll knock him down if it's a point blank blast. Cause you can't miss a beam if the enemy is right in your face.
The triple beam did, not the single one.

That and he can redirect her head. He's gonna see the obvious signs of a beam weapon. And Legion isn't likely to last long enough to try it, shooting at point blank range dousn;t cross her mind for long periods of time.
However for the sake of argument I will just use your argument here. Let's say Godzilla definitely beats Legion 1v1. Ok great, but he would need to focus his energy and time on Legion. He has to focus on somebody. Iris and Gyaos are going to be backing Legion up here. As I said before numbers matter a lot. We see it all the time in the wild. How a group of smaller animals can take on one larger animal simply because of the numbers. They might be weaker on their own but numbers matter a lot. Gyaos is very aggressive and will probably be attacking Godzilla nonstop. Iris is more defensive but given how aggressive Godzilla is, which you do agree with me on how aggressive he is, is going to attack Iris and provoke him to attack back very quickly.
Iris' offense is too slow and the Gyaos thing has been gone over many times before.

Also, odd. When I first saw Iris, I originally thought that he would be agile as hell on his feet. Similar to Kong and Jet Jaguar, too be he's pretty much the opposite.
Gyaos isn't gonna be inflicting much damage if any. Even if they distract Godzilla long enough for Legion's whips to com out, so what? It took her at least a minute between the time she got up and the time that she fired to whips at Gamera. Godzilla's gonna immediately go back to ignoring the small none threats in favor of taking out the big one. Legion's gonna get fried at this point. And that's assuming that Godzilla doesn't double tap to make sure that she's thoroughly dead, and btw it's within his character to make sure that an opponent who he wants dead is actually dead. This scenario is unlikely, but still gonna go favorably for Godzilla.
They won't be doing damage, but they will be annoying at their size. and if they can somehow manage to lift Godzilla in the air? Good on them, but it would probably take both of them to do so. Just makes their deaths come quicker by aggravating Godzilla. And that's all they would need to do to allow Legion and Iris to start stabbing. You also state that he's going to immediately ignore the small fry to go back to the bigger threats, but did he do so with the Male MUTO? No, he did not. He turned and went to fight the Male while allowing the Female to recover and do her own thing. The Gyaos will be annoying him to the point his focus is going to be on them, the two aggressive fighters of this battle.
False equivalence. He turned to fight the Male Muto because said Kaiju had just dragged him nearly off his feet for a long distance. The Gyaos don't pull shenanigans like that.

It's easy tro ingore some kids shooting you with water pistols. It's impossible to ignore a pissed off Haast's Eagle dragging you around like a sack of potatoes.

Considering that Godzilla instantly followed up a claw strike with a tail slam, he definitely has the reflexes.

It's as simple as reaching out and grabbing something that, while flailing, is not moving around. He's definitely stronger than it. It's not gonna be difficult in any sense.
What fight was this claw strike to immediate tail slam in? I don't see it in the Ghidorah fight, I don't see it in Aftershock, and the tail slam that killed the Male MUTO was when the MUTO flew right towards his face. And that attack took some time to do.
Boston fight against Ghidorah. And before you say something, just because he was super charged doesn't mean that he's gonna behave differently outside of beam spammy ness.

I already said that the beams can do minor damage, but that's it. They're ignorable, and Legion could suffer a case of friendly fire.
How can Legion suffer a case of friendly fire if her aim is poop? The beams from the Gyaos might not do much, but their clawing will be annoying, and possibly dangerous if they attack the facial area of Godzilla instead of his sides and such.
I mean that Legion might get hit by the Gyaos when Godzilla is attacking. They might miss when shooting at him, or he might move in a manner that puts Legion in the line of fire.

I'll put it like this.

According to your logic, because it would take a few seconds for this absolute monster of a flamethrower to destroy me:


Than I can tank this much smaller flamethrower with no injury:



See what I mean? Lasting a few seconds but still getting deleted doesn't prove much. Especially when Godzilla's atomic breath is absurdly hot.
I go into further detail here:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... t-77440771

Honestly, I don't think any of the Kaiju her are gonna take a blast from Godzilla's atomic breath. It's gonna spell doom for whoever it hits. Especially since Godzilla's slow charge time only occurs when he's all tired, like in 2014. It's not gonna happen here, he's actually quite fast with it outside of that.

If Godzilla and Legion where about to fire their respective beam weapons, Godzilla's gonna beat her on the draw.
I really doubt he's going to beat Legion in a beam draw. Legion takes about 5 seconds to charge up and fire her beam. Meanwhile, Godzilla in the Arctic fight, took 10 seconds to charge up and fire his beam, almost triple that in the MUTO Fight due to their ability to weaken his ray. And since this is PRE-SUPERCHARGED Godzilla, that will be a 10 second charge up at best. Yes the beam will be doing damage to all three, but considering his opponents have a faster charge time than him and there are more of them, his beam is going to be constantly interrupted by annoyances.
He can fire quick shots with less charge time. The 10 second charge time came with an extended blast.

Again, this only applies to him when he's tired. He's not tired here, he can freely blast his atomic breath at airborne nuisances.
And yet he missed Ghidorah, who was on the ground. The Gyaos are in the air. They are going to be flying around that beam if he is firing at them. Plus any moment he spends firing beams at the gyaos is a wasted beam that could be spent firing at someone like Legion or Iris. The Hyper Gyaos do avoid many of Gamera's shots, but it's only when they are hit that they freeze up. Which won't matter cause the moment they do get hit by that beam, they're most likely either very injured by it or dead.
Ghidorah dodged, and Godzilla sweeps to hit actively running targets.

Already addressed this. Godzilla's beam is arguably the strongest one on the field.
It is among the strongest on the field. Iris's superior sonic beams will tear into him, if he decides to use them. If Legion can hit her beam, it'll damage Godzilla. Godzilla's beam at most, was shown pushing around monsters like the Female MUTO and only truly killed them when torched down the throat. Same with Ghidorah. The only time it does hit Ghidorah, is when he was supercharged, and that far stronger beam only pushed him back, and only burned Ghidorah when it was literally being shot down his severed head. It burned Kong yes, but again that was a supercharged Godzilla, and Kong is covered in fur, meaning the beam is far less powerful here when he has less power to throw into his beam.
Not likely. Gonna need to prove that.


They won't be cooperating well, but they'll be doing damage at least. Legion can be deadly and she can be fast when she wants to be, or when the CGI is with her. Iris is in the same boat here. He most likely will be fighting Godzilla if we go by the assumption he absorbed Ayana or is acting under the order of Kill. Otherwise he will immediately fly away to find Ayana. The Gyaos will be beaming down on Godzilla, and it might not do much but he's going to be annoyed by two giant flying reptiles constantly trying to attack him, and if the Male MUTO could distract him and pull him off the Female MUTO, the Gyaos would be able to do the same.
They just lack the speed and ferocity. Godzilla has the durability to whether attacks and the strength and ferocity to rip in.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Godzilla2020 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:05 pm Alright, before I get into picking apart certain points, first things first I gotta address the big things. Namely, what's being said in favor of both the Gyaos and Iris.

I'll start with Gyaos.

A lot of what you're saying about them is, to put it bluntly, fan fiction tier. They despise melee, they fight from the sky by shooting their target. To put it into perspective, just look at how they felt like dealing with Gamera. They just stuck to the sky and kept shooting, they didn't dare engage him in melee even though with their size and numbers they may hypothetically be a threat. In comparison Godzilla is physically stronger, faster on his feet, more durable, more ferocious, biigger, and more physically imposing than Gamera. That last part is extremely important, if the Gyaos deemed Gamera too threatening to engage tooth and claw, than they'll sensibly think the same about Godzilla to an even greater extent. That and their claws aren't gonna be doing anything here. Remember back in the first Heisei Gamera movie? Even back then Gyaos' talons were notably ineffective against Gamera's scales. And the Hyper Gyaos seemed to have evolved less than Gamera did between his first and third Heisei movie. There's no reason to assume that their talons would be useful here either. Essentially it's this:

Godzilla's Durability > Gamera's Durability > Gyaos' Talons

Not that it matters, they simply don't like engaging in melee.
I will agree with them hating Melee. I was stating Hypotethical fighting, that they do not use for some stupid reason in the film. They do, however, dodge very well most of the time. It's only when they finally get hit that they freeze up and take the damage. Their sonic rays aren't going to be piercing through, but with how much they spam it, it'll annoy the shit out of Godzilla. You can ignore a scratch, but when something keeps trying to scratch you with beams, you are going to get annoyed real fast, and with how aggressive the Gyaos are, those sonic beam scratches are going to annoy the hell out of Godzilla.

Let's put it in another term shall we? It'll be like being bit by a mosquito bite, an irritation that constantly comes back and leaves you itchy. You can ignore it sure, but the mosquito will constantly come back and bite you some more. In Godzilla's case, its two beams scattering across his body. Beams he can ignore yes, but beams that will irritate him constantly with how constant the Gyaos fire them.

But let's go with how you say Godzilla will take out the Gyaos. You state that he's going to beam them down yes? Has he ever shown that he was willing to beam down an opponent who was in the air, ever in his various fights? The first fight with the male muto, he goes for melee with him, and doesn't fire a beam as the MUTO flies off. You could attribute this to the MUTO disrupting his beam sure, but he still does use it against the Female MUTO, a grounded opponent whose ability is still weakening his power alongside the Male who is also there with his own power dampening ability. Second fight with the Male MUTO, he continues to go for melee with him. Ghidorah flying away in the arctic, no beam. Ghidorah on the ground, uses a beam and gets shot back in return. Ghidorah flying over the ocean, no beam just grab him out of the sky. Ghidorah wrapping around his body? Beam to the chest. Godzilla does not use his beams on Aerial Opponents. He'd rather let them come to him and then tear them apart in person and use his beams like so. The only time he ever shoots a beam into the sky, is against jet fighters in GvK. Even then, he recoiled when a single jet fighter crashed into his chest. And unlike those Jets who mostly fly straight, the Gyaos can dodge. They fly straight when firing their beam for prolonged periods sure, but then the moment they see a fireball coming towards them, they get the hell out of dodge for as long as they can.

Meanwhile, the Gyaos suffer the opposite problem. They'd rather bombard their enemies with beams, and stay away from the sharp teeth and claws that will tear them apart with ease. And with their CGI, they move about the same as Legendary Mothra would in the air, constantly moving and dodging unless it's a point-blank blast against them. It took 9 fireballs before he finally hit the Gyaos in that fight after killing the first one. You could say it's due to his shit aim, but the gyaos does actively dodge at least one of those fireballs as he flies through the city. Any moment he spends trying to swat those mosquitos leaves him open to the other two if he doesn't deal with them first.
Also, looking at your analysis of Iris' behavior, I realized something. Iris is an even bigger dumbass than I thought.
Nagoda wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:31 pm As for Iris, I'm really starting to get annoyed by how much you point out his lack of aggression with Gamera. It's almost as if Gamera was barely doing shit to him with his attacks and Iris had more important things to do than stop to fight someone who was barely even hurting him, a creature that was born just weeks prior. It's also almost as if his goal to finally fuse with the human who was torn out of him pre-metamorphosis took higher priority than fighting a large turtle whose attacks didn't really do anything to him and wasn't really much of a threat in the moment.
So first you make the claim that Iris had better things to do, which is rather damning in terms of intelligence considering what he ended up doing. You also claim that Gamera was hardly doing shit to him, hense his lack of reaction.

Bullshit.

When Gamera first bit Iris, he went from passive flying, to booking it at top speed. You don't just run away after getting bit and desperately try to avoid someone if the attack didn't hurt. Then Gamera does the shell razor attack. Iris' reaction here further destrys your "he wasn't doing shit to him" claim. Gamera is essentially running a flaming buzz saw into his chest, Iris then retaliates with the strongest weapon in his arsenal.

Put two and two together, you wouldn't shoot a little kid for stepping on your foot. But you sure as hell would if said kid was actively stabbing you. Iris responded so extremely because what Gamera was doing hurt like hell.
You wouldn't shoot a little kid for stepping on your foot, but Iris still bothered with firing sonic beams at two fighter jets whose bullets bounced off him.
Too passive and too stupid? Iris was not going to waste time searching for his priestess again after losing her once. He knew where she was and he was determined to get to her before she disappeared again. Yes you could argue why he didn't just kill Gamera then go, but is the movie called Iris? No, it's called Gamera, meaning he's got plot on his side. And again, him easily deflecting the fireballs proves that Gamera wasn't much of a threat in the moment if Gamera's most useful attack could be thrown away like a toy. Again you state that he just lets Gamera walk up to him and only attacks when hit first. When someone weaker than you starts attacking, of course you are going to attack, or you are going to be like those cocky fighters who let their opponents get some hits in to show how useless their attacks as you walked through them. In this case, Iris choose the latter. And what did he do after immediately knocking out Gamera? Go right back to his main priority of get Ayana.
I get that movies involving a hero fighting a stronger villain head on usually have to dumb down the villain so the hero can win. But Iris is an example of this trope taken to the extreme, to the point that the villain's stupidity damn near neutralizes the sense of dread brought by his power. Just because Gamera had plot armor doesn't invalidate how the plot went, and the plot make Iris dumb.

So now you make the claim that Iris deflecting Gamera's plasma blasts were done just because "suck it inferior turtle"? Uh, no. Iris deflected them for the exact same reason that you or me would jump behind cover if either of use heard gun shots near by. We later see that the power of only a few plasma blasts thoroughly desecrated Iris. His insides were either vaporized or just splattered everywhere. Even his armor was annihilated, with his skull/helmet having lost so much structural integrity that Gamera crushed it by merely stepping on it.

The plasma fist isn't much stronger than a typical plasma blast, it just has more penetration power. If a single hit from the plasma fist could do that to Iris, than the bombardment that Gamera launched would have ended both the plot and Iris' life had he not deflected it.

Or course if someone pointed a gun at you and you had a bullet proof shield, you'd pull it up. That doesn't prove that you can tank getting shot.

Another thing, you may or may not be aware of this, but your really making Iris look bad. First you emphasize that he has to hurry to get the one he wants to fuse with. And then you describe him letting his opponent walk up to him and land the first hit to show off superiority.

So from Iris' POV: "Alright, I made it and I'm finally going to fuse and become complete, and I don't have a second to lose. Nothing can ruin thi-it's that damn turtle again. Doesn't he know when to give up? I know he tried to kill me twice, and again just now. I could just slice his throat and be done with it, especially when he's just standing there and roaring at me. So, should I just kill him and keep goin? I'm in a hurry......No, I'll get into an extended wrestling match with him instead."

Image of fist through face

Just...why? How can he be so stupid?

So he's in a massive hurry to get to his fusion target, but he whiffs this in favor of fighting something that you said he doesn't have time to fight? And worse, he makes it an extended, drawn out fight where he can kill his opponent in a million different ways and finish it there. But he literally drags his persistent problem to his goal, knowing that Gamera could just kill her instead and solve the problem like that?

No matter how you slice it, Iris has the tactical ability of a potato. He's known as a dumbass for a reason, that reputation didn't just appear out of thin air.
There is a difference between being hit with a plasma blast on an armored outside, and having one shoved into the giant hole in your chest. One hits armor, the other hits all the soft inner bits. If a single plasma blast was all it would have taken to beat Iris, then Gamera should have fired his plasma blast not at his arm, but at Iris, the monster he had his fist inside, and was standing right in front of him. But no, he instead decided to blow up his arm and form a fire arm, to then shove INSIDE a hole he made in the chest of his enemy. He had several moments to attempt to do so during their pushing match, but instead he decided to continue a pushing match instead of doing a plasma blast which you say could beat Iris.

If you were wearing a bulletproof vest, you can survive a shot to the chest with a shotgun. If you have a massive gaping hole in that bulletproof armor, that shotgun is going to tear right through your body. See? I can make bullet analogies that make sense too.

As for letting Gamera walk up and take the first hit, Gamera rushes up, and immediately gets pushed back. What happens after that you might ask? He stabs Gamera through the shoulder, and continues walking forward. Literally, I'm watching the fight as I type this. What does that stab to the shoulder do exactly? It knocks Gamera on his ass, and is immediately followed up by another stab to the gut the moment Gamera gets back up. They then start walking again, upon which Gamera could have, at any point in this entire pushing match, fired off a plasma blast right into his enemy's face. But no, upon the first three being thrown to the side, Gamera decides he'd rather push against Iris than hit him point-blank with a fireball.

Yes he drags his enemy and problem towards his goal, and immediately knocks gamera out again by pushing him through that train station. He could fire a sonic ray and end Gamera immediately, but that wasn't the point of the movie. Another portion of the movie is that Ayana is raising Iris to torture and Kill Gamera for her. What better way to do this than to drag the literal demon of his human host towards her and gain her trust by throwing his injured body in front of her? He doesn't have the time to fight Gamera, but he's also basically a glorified pet monster in this movie as well, and pet dogs and cats tend to bring their kill to their owners.
Now let's say Godzilla is rushing towards and tearing into Iris. What was it you said Iris did as he was being torn into now? Oh right, he fired off the sonic scapels from behind his enemy.

The moment Godzilla starts to tear into Iris, he's either going to have to avoid a spear to the gut or shoulder, or sonic rays tearing into his back, if he also doesn't have to deal with Legion at that point. Godzilla is going to bite Iris and drag him around. It's what he does in his Melee fights. Female Muto? Walks up to her and bites her neck/shoulder area and pushes her back to knock her down, then stomps on her. Ghidorah? Grabs a head and bites down on it before slamming it to the ground. Ghidorah in the air? Grabs him with his teeth and crocodile spins to tear the very long neck off underwater. If we include Boston, first thing he does is goes to grab and push Ghidorah only to get bit in the neck and pushed back himself. He then goes on to push Ghidorah through a building. Kong. If we assume he fights the same melee here as he does pre supercharge, then he does this. He bites him and drags him around, and throws him to the ground to stomp on him. MUTO Prime. Tackles her and gets a giant fist to the face as he attempts to stomp on her. Rushes her head on and grapples her, and gets a claw to the face.

Yes, Iris and Gamera's main fight is them pushing against one another. However, Godzilla also mainly uses this same pushing your opponent to the ground technique as well, cause it's effective. You know who won both pushing contests? The one who was pushing the hardest, in this case being Godzilla and Iris pushing the Female MUTO and Gamera to the ground respectively. So a pushing match isn't out of the question here for these two. Godzilla fights by pushing his opponents to the ground, then stomping on them. During this whole pushing match, Godzilla could bite onto Iris yes, but that also leaves him very open to a stab to the chest by the monster he is pushing back as he tends to grab not the arms, but the shoulders of the monster he is pushing back. Godzilla will win the pushing contest, but he'll also risk getting stabbed in doing so.
But let's say he has that crippling passiveness you say he has. Now let's go by the assumption that for this battle, Ayana told him to Kill, or he is acting under the orders of Kill. The moment he was told to kill, he started attacking like the good evil pet he was, and immediately stabbed Gamera in the chest, then continued on with his goal of get Ayana to fuse with him while dragging Gamera with him on his spear. And yes, while he didn't kill Gamera, he did incapacitate him and sucessfully go through with his main priority of fusing with Ayana, meaning he was successful in his mission. If we go off the assumption he was ordered to kill in this fight, he's going to be walking toward Godzilla to start stabbing him. While Godzilla will immediately beat him in Melee, it would still allow Legion to then come in with her own attacks and the Gyaos with their petty scratches. Iris is not going to be just standing there doing nothing, because if we go by your Passive doing nothing bullshit, then the first thing Iris is going to do in this fight is turn around and fly to wherever Ayana is, leaving his allies to their deaths while he goes to become complete.
Even when he's told to kill, he stabs the stomach. A stab wound there is survivable by humans, even regular reptiles can take that, let alone a super reptile like Gamera. If that's his definition of kill on such a foe, than that just re affirms his glaring stupidity.
And yet that stab to the stomach knocked gamera out for several minutes. Yes Gamera is not the most durable, but getting stabbed in the gut is still a stab in the gut. You can survive a stab to the gut, but you'll still end up going into shock with a large stab wound to the gut. You could Argue that Godzilla would be fine with this considering he took an axe to the leg and the muto's constantly cutting away at him, but the Muto's got Skin Deep at most.
And if we go by he is fused with Ayana, that just throws the passive bullshit before that out the door. Once he fused with Ayana, he was immediately stabbed by Gamera. How this happened you may ask? A scene prior in the film perfectly explains this. Fusing with Ayana takes time and energy, and that time is usually spent with Iris being still. Otherwise, Baby Iris would have just stabbed that boy in the chest and take back Ayana to fuse with her. If we go by after the fusion, Iris actively attacks his enemies. He stabs Gamera's hand and starts to absorb his blood to then use his enemy's power against them. But the problem with doing so here is that it'll probably fuel Godzilla if he uses Atomic Rays against him. If he is trying to stab Godzilla in this moment, I don't think Godzilla is going to just let him attack while he focuses on Legion. He's going to fight back, thus freeing up Legion.
You say "bullshit" like his reputation of being passive came from no where, it didn't.

But lets say that he's already fused and is aggressive. So what? he's painfully slow and his weaponry doesn't have what it takes to be very effective on Godzilla. The only reason that he could so cleanly stab Gamera was due to the latter conveniently standing almost perfectly still. Godzilla isn't gonna be still at all, and he's even tougher. Approaching him to stab at any angle leaves Iris liable to get maimed. Whether it be by tail slams or head on melee, where he would get smashed.
Except, Gamera wasn't conviently still for no reason. He was conveniently still, cause he had his hand shoved inside Iris's chest, and his back against a literal wall. They were fighting inside a train station after all. And Godzilla is always still when he fires his beams, or when he stomps down on his downed enemies to roar in their face. If that isn't him being still, then I don't know what to tell ya.

You also tend to forget this is a 4 on 1 fight here, 2 on 1 if we aren't including the Gyaos's scratch damage with their beams. The thing is, Godzilla has always focused his attention on one monster at a time in his fights. He stopped to roar at the Female MUTO when just moments before, the Male MUTO was dragging him around, all because she tackled him into a building. The Male attacks him, and he goes to snap at him, upon which the Female stabs him in the side. He did the exact same thing twice, and got the exact same punishment, being a hit by the other enemy he knew was right there. Now let's go off your scenario.

Godzilla is going to rush Legion as you say, and he's going to be charging through several sonic rays that are scratching him and making him itchy at most. As he does that, Legion and Iris are both going to be walking towards him as he rushes forth. And what is the first thing he is going to do? He's going to try to push Legion to the ground, presumably aiming for that large horn of hers considering it's basically half her face. Legion might attempt her whole lifting up her body to slam her face into her opponent thing or she could rush forth and try to poke him with her horn. He could go for the shoulder grab and bite Legion's neck sure, but that still leaves him trying to push Legion to the ground, the same thing Gamera tried to do and got pushed back. And with him grappling that horn or her shoulder and trying to push Legion back and to the ground, that leaves him in the same exact predicament as Gamera, where the two back legs come forth and attempt to stab into him. See the problem here? Let's say he manages to somehow knock Legion to the ground and pins her underfoot. By the time that happens, Iris is going to be right there after its slow walk ready to stab him. Let's say he then turns his attention to Iris and goes to grapple Iris, which then leaves him open to the beam Legion has right beneath him. If he doesn't go for Iris, then Iris is going to get a stab on him to get his attention, thus gaining his attention, and releasing Legion from her pin, letting her either get back up or once more, attempt to fire a beam.

Let's say he manages to tear off that horn, the same way Gamera does, by her charging towards him with it opened up like an idiot. Then what? Legion is going to fall to the ground like she's dead and Godzilla is going to knock her over, stomping on her and roaring to the sky in victory like he tends to do against his enemies. Upon which, she is going to get up and start whipping him with those red whips, and Iris presumably will be there by then.

Now let's say he is preocupied trying to tear off Legion's horn and her little side arms while also simultaneously trying to not get hit by her very long and sharp back legs, that leaves him open to a stab to the side by the other slow monster walking towards him as he and Legion have their pushing match. But let's say he has this speed that the ability to fight multiple monsters at once with his non-tired body. The moment Iris gets close to stab him, his attention is presumably going to turn to Iris, which then leaves him open to a leg stab or horn slice by Legion. Which is very unlikely as seen when he fought the Female MUTO and was so focused on her, that the male got a free shot in on him.

He avoids the leg stab by legion and avoids the arm stab by Iris let's say by backing away or throwing Legion to the side, then he has to decide which of these two slow monsters to fight. Leading him to either attack the guy with the spear hands who is going to stab him as he falls to the ground, or the alien with the spear everything he was just grappling with. You expect Iris to just slowly walk towards Legion and Godzilla's fight, as though he's this far distance away. What's stopping Legion from bringing the fight closer to Iris, or Iris simply walking behind Godzilla while he's busy trying to tear through Legion? And if he goes to fight Iris first, what's stopping Legion from rushing forth with her own stabbing attacks or misfiring everywhere with her beam? Godzilla does not handle beams well Pre-Supercharge. Even after he was supercharged, Ghidorah's beam still tired him out to the point he could just be lifted up into the air. Though you could argue that was because Ghidorah was also supercharged by that point. But if we go by the arctic fight, it doesn't take much to knock Godzilla over with a powerful beam, which Legion has, even if her aim is shitty. If she can get one hit with that beam, Godzilla is going to get knocked down, leading to the two other monsters to then rush towards him.

He does not do well with multiple opponents. Even against Ghidorah, he aimed for one head at a time, leading the other two heads to then get hits in on him.

Remember, this is the same godzilla who got elbow dropped by a big monkey with no powers later on in his career while trying to hit a beam off multiple times. Proof that his beam can be redirected with a powerful blow, something his opponents can very much do. The Same Godzilla, who canonically lost his territory and his original lair to another giant monkey in the past if we take Godzilla Dominion's talk of his past rival Kong driving him out of his lair a long time ago as Pre-Supercharged Godzilla. In a fight in Melee one on one, Godzilla will beat them. Together, he has less of a chance. Two of them at the same time while two mosquitos fire beams down on him from above, and he's got way too many distractions at once to handle.
Since this thing is still going, might as well hop back into the conversation.
Godzilla2020 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:07 pm
Godzilla was notably dominating the melee fight against Ghidorah in the artic, that and he can actually run. Something that neither Iris or Legion seem to do, he's definitely faster than both of them on the ground.
He was dominating in the melee fight yes, but a single blast of a gravity beam knocked him on his ass immediately after that brief Melee clash. Not going to say Legion''s beam will kill him in a single hit, but it'll knock him down if it's a point blank blast. Cause you can't miss a beam if the enemy is right in your face.
The triple beam did, not the single one.

That and he can redirect her head. He's gonna see the obvious signs of a beam weapon. And Legion isn't likely to last long enough to try it, shooting at point blank range dousn;t cross her mind for long periods of time.
And yet, the first time she uses her beam in the second fight with gamera, is at point blank with Gamera pinned beneath her. If it doesn't cross her mind for long periods of time like you say, then she wouldn't have attempted to beam him point blank in that instance, and instead went for a horn stab or something instead. The only reason she didn't do so beforehand, was because she was trying to get her swarm to kill Gamera for her.
However for the sake of argument I will just use your argument here. Let's say Godzilla definitely beats Legion 1v1. Ok great, but he would need to focus his energy and time on Legion. He has to focus on somebody. Iris and Gyaos are going to be backing Legion up here. As I said before numbers matter a lot. We see it all the time in the wild. How a group of smaller animals can take on one larger animal simply because of the numbers. They might be weaker on their own but numbers matter a lot. Gyaos is very aggressive and will probably be attacking Godzilla nonstop. Iris is more defensive but given how aggressive Godzilla is, which you do agree with me on how aggressive he is, is going to attack Iris and provoke him to attack back very quickly.
Iris' offense is too slow and the Gyaos thing has been gone over many times before.

Also, odd. When I first saw Iris, I originally thought that he would be agile as hell on his feet. Similar to Kong and Jet Jaguar, too be he's pretty much the opposite.
Iris's offense is slow yes, but so was Godzilla's in 2014. but let's say he's going at the speed he was during the Ghidorah arctic fight. He is going to rush Iris, and push Iris through several Hawaiian buildings to knock Iris down, as Iris pushes back and slowly attempts to stab him as he gets pushed through buildings. Not to mention whatever the hell Legion is doing at this point.
Gyaos isn't gonna be inflicting much damage if any. Even if they distract Godzilla long enough for Legion's whips to com out, so what? It took her at least a minute between the time she got up and the time that she fired to whips at Gamera. Godzilla's gonna immediately go back to ignoring the small none threats in favor of taking out the big one. Legion's gonna get fried at this point. And that's assuming that Godzilla doesn't double tap to make sure that she's thoroughly dead, and btw it's within his character to make sure that an opponent who he wants dead is actually dead. This scenario is unlikely, but still gonna go favorably for Godzilla.
They won't be doing damage, but they will be annoying at their size. and if they can somehow manage to lift Godzilla in the air? Good on them, but it would probably take both of them to do so. Just makes their deaths come quicker by aggravating Godzilla. And that's all they would need to do to allow Legion and Iris to start stabbing. You also state that he's going to immediately ignore the small fry to go back to the bigger threats, but did he do so with the Male MUTO? No, he did not. He turned and went to fight the Male while allowing the Female to recover and do her own thing. The Gyaos will be annoying him to the point his focus is going to be on them, the two aggressive fighters of this battle.
False equivalence. He turned to fight the Male Muto because said Kaiju had just dragged him nearly off his feet for a long distance. The Gyaos don't pull shenanigans like that.

It's easy to ignore some kids shooting you with water pistols. It's impossible to ignore a pissed off Haast's Eagle dragging you around like a sack of potatoes.
Once more, he had the Female pinned, then the Male pulled him off her yes. But in doing so, she recovered and barreled into him. Same thing will happen here with Legion and Iris. If he goes for Legion first, that gives Iris the time to get close enough to start attacking as well. If he attacks Iris first, then he chose the wrong target as that leaves Legion open to rush him from the side and start stabbing and cutting.

Yes it's easy to ignore two kids shooting you with water pistols. But it's also another thing when you are fighting another person, then start fighting the guy who pulled you off that other person and focus on them so much you forget the first person who then returns swingin. Which is what will happen here if Iris or legion are close enough for the other to retaliate during their pushing match with Godzilla.

Considering that Godzilla instantly followed up a claw strike with a tail slam, he definitely has the reflexes.

It's as simple as reaching out and grabbing something that, while flailing, is not moving around. He's definitely stronger than it. It's not gonna be difficult in any sense.
What fight was this claw strike to immediate tail slam in? I don't see it in the Ghidorah fight, I don't see it in Aftershock, and the tail slam that killed the Male MUTO was when the MUTO flew right towards his face. And that attack took some time to do.
Boston fight against Ghidorah. And before you say something, just because he was super charged doesn't mean that he's gonna behave differently outside of beam spammy ness.
Watched the scene. He smacks away a head, then goes for a tail swipe as Ghidorah bites onto his arm, pulling Ghidorah with him and sweeping the legs. I don't think that him swiping away a head is the same as him being forced to grab onto two legs coming down on him from above. Even if we do say he can do that, they are still coming down from above him, and we see that he doesn't take attacks from above well. Ghidorah attacks with heads from above and he gets bit. Now he could do this against Legion or Iris sure, but the only one he's going to hit is Iris. Legion backs the hell away as fast as she can when something is about to hit her egg sacs. Iris will probably take that hit and get knocked back.

I already said that the beams can do minor damage, but that's it. They're ignorable, and Legion could suffer a case of friendly fire.
How can Legion suffer a case of friendly fire if her aim is poop? The beams from the Gyaos might not do much, but their clawing will be annoying, and possibly dangerous if they attack the facial area of Godzilla instead of his sides and such.
I mean that Legion might get hit by the Gyaos when Godzilla is attacking. They might miss when shooting at him, or he might move in a manner that puts Legion in the line of fire.
By that same logic, the beams should scatter off Legion the same way they do to Gamera since she is covered in a silicon exoskeleton. Having taken the Mana Blast for as long as she did, those glancing beams are going to be the exact same thing that'll happen to Godzilla and to Gamera when it hits his shell. It'll bounce off.
I really doubt he's going to beat Legion in a beam draw. Legion takes about 5 seconds to charge up and fire her beam. Meanwhile, Godzilla in the Arctic fight, took 10 seconds to charge up and fire his beam, almost triple that in the MUTO Fight due to their ability to weaken his ray. And since this is PRE-SUPERCHARGED Godzilla, that will be a 10 second charge up at best. Yes the beam will be doing damage to all three, but considering his opponents have a faster charge time than him and there are more of them, his beam is going to be constantly interrupted by annoyances.
He can fire quick shots with less charge time. The 10 second charge time came with an extended blast.
Let's assume this quick shot of his is the killing Female MUTO charge time, which is about three seconds to charge and fire from what I counted. Now let's also go by Legion's quickest beam fire, which took about 3 to 4 seconds to fire. One of these beams does bigger explosions and pierces its enemies. The other on the other hand, pushes back and burns its enemies. Now when these two beams clash, one is going to beat back the other, and it's not going to be Godzilla's beam, for the simple fact that Legion's beam has better piercing power than Godzilla's own. We've seen how his weaker beam does against a stronger beam in the form of the Proton Scream. If Legion can sustain fire with her beam, she'll beat him back provided it hits the beam and not the ground in front of Godzilla.

Again, this only applies to him when he's tired. He's not tired here, he can freely blast his atomic breath at airborne nuisances.
And yet he missed Ghidorah, who was on the ground. The Gyaos are in the air. They are going to be flying around that beam if he is firing at them. Plus any moment he spends firing beams at the gyaos is a wasted beam that could be spent firing at someone like Legion or Iris. The Hyper Gyaos do avoid many of Gamera's shots, but it's only when they are hit that they freeze up. Which won't matter cause the moment they do get hit by that beam, they're most likely either very injured by it or dead.
Ghidorah dodged, and Godzilla sweeps to hit actively running targets.
My point exactly. Ghidorah Dodged the beam. The Gyaos are also fairly good at dodging for a while. The only time Godzilla ever used his beam to sweep against a moving target, was when he was supercharged and fighting Kong. Every other time, he used it against a stationary opponent, who then either dodged or took the hit cause they were too slow to dodge or it was a point blank blow.


Already addressed this. Godzilla's beam is arguably the strongest one on the field.
It is among the strongest on the field. Iris's superior sonic beams will tear into him, if he decides to use them. If Legion can hit her beam, it'll damage Godzilla. Godzilla's beam at most, was shown pushing around monsters like the Female MUTO and only truly killed them when torched down the throat. Same with Ghidorah. The only time it does hit Ghidorah, is when he was supercharged, and that far stronger beam only pushed him back, and only burned Ghidorah when it was literally being shot down his severed head. It burned Kong yes, but again that was a supercharged Godzilla, and Kong is covered in fur, meaning the beam is far less powerful here when he has less power to throw into his beam.
Not likely. Gonna need to prove that.
Here you go then, a majority of Godzilla's Beams in the Monsterverse. Female MUTO gets pushed back and knocked down, and only burns completely with the beam down the throat move. Ghidorah dodged the first time, then took the supercharged one with it only pushing him back away from Godzilla. Only time it burned Ghidorah, was down the throat, with the supercharged beam. The ones in GvK are supercharged with the possible exception of the Proton Scream beam battle cause he had been using his beam extensively beforehand.


But let's assume that his beam is about as strong as the one he used against the Apex Facility then shall we? Here is him using it on the Apex Facility. Head to 48 seconds in since I can't get timecoded urls to work on here.


Him sweeping his breath across the facility causes some explosions larger than him with a majority being up to his knees at most.

Now let's look at Legion using her beam against human military shall we? Head to 4 minutes and 23 seconds to see her using her beam against the military, since I can't get the forum youtube thing to work with time placed links.



One sweep of her beam, and a massive chain reaction of continuous explosions larger than her, something consistant with each use of her beam against the ground. I wonder which beam is stronger here?

Legion's use of her beams tend to cause chain explosions with each hit against the ground, and they tend to pierce right through whatever they hit. They tear right through Gamera, whose durability is questionable, meaning they might strike and explode against Godzilla. Where Godzilla's beams are more of a kinetic force, Legion's is more of an explosive blast, the types of attacks Godzilla does not take well to if his reaction to various missiles and explosives hitting him is anything to go by. He can take the hit, but it still bothers him enough for him to recoil in pain.

As for Iris, its own beams were able to sheer right into Gamera's shell where the Gyaos's own sonic beams couldn't do so at all. A Gamera whose body has now adapted to reflecting these sonic beams back like a mirror using his hand. Iris also has the problem with using his enemies power against him, which if he does so, will only make Godzilla stronger so that there will set Iris and his team back if he does that again. Then again, Iris only uses his beams when he is pressured. Like getting buzzsawed or having a fist in his chest.
They won't be cooperating well, but they'll be doing damage at least. Legion can be deadly and she can be fast when she wants to be, or when the CGI is with her. Iris is in the same boat here. He most likely will be fighting Godzilla if we go by the assumption he absorbed Ayana or is acting under the order of Kill. Otherwise he will immediately fly away to find Ayana. The Gyaos will be beaming down on Godzilla, and it might not do much but he's going to be annoyed by two giant flying reptiles constantly trying to attack him, and if the Male MUTO could distract him and pull him off the Female MUTO, the Gyaos would be able to do the same.
They just lack the speed and ferocity. Godzilla has the durability to whether attacks and the strength and ferocity to rip in.
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Legion brings the speed and ferocity with her. Iris is just there to get a stab in whenever the battle gets close to him. Godzilla has the durability to take their attacks, but he mostly relies on the same pushing tactics Gamera and Iris use in order to knock down an enemy and then stomp them into the ground. A tactic which might not work against Legion if she digs her claws into the ground. It'll work against Iris, but Legion is also a problem in this fight. And we see that sharp enough objects can stab into Godzilla's hide with enough force, which Iris can pull if it can get a hit off while Godzilla is occupied with Legion.
A reminder to watch Chouseishin Gransazers.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Godzilla2020 »

Late again, was busy as all hell.

Just something to note, if you (or anyone) wants to continue, it may take me a week or two to reply. Just a heads up.

Nagoda wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:30 am
I will agree with them hating Melee. I was stating Hypothetical fighting, that they do not use for some stupid reason in the film. They do, however, dodge very well most of the time. It's only when they finally get hit that they freeze up and take the damage. Their sonic rays aren't going to be piercing through, but with how much they spam it, it'll annoy the poop out of Godzilla. You can ignore a scratch, but when something keeps trying to scratch you with beams, you are going to get annoyed real fast, and with how aggressive the Gyaos are, those sonic beam scratches are going to annoy the hell out of Godzilla.

Let's put it in another term shall we? It'll be like being bit by a mosquito bite, an irritation that constantly comes back and leaves you itchy. You can ignore it sure, but the mosquito will constantly come back and bite you some more. In Godzilla's case, its two beams scattering across his body. Beams he can ignore yes, but beams that will irritate him constantly with how constant the Gyaos fire them.
Well, mosquito bites have other factors that make them exceedingly irritating that Gyaos beams don't have (bumps left behind, itchy as fuck, itching hurts but simultaneously almost makes you want to scratch some more, potential illness contracted). Gyaos beams leaving less than paper cut damage is gonna be ignorable for however long it takes for Godzilla to kill whoever he's currently mauling. That and reptiles have some of the highest pain tolerance in the animal kingdom. If Godzilla's not feeling himself get legitimately stabbed or something, he's gonna ignore it in favor of killing the big guy he's targeted(likely Legion).
But let's go with how you say Godzilla will take out the Gyaos. You state that he's going to beam them down yes? Has he ever shown that he was willing to beam down an opponent who was in the air, ever in his various fights? The first fight with the male muto, he goes for melee with him, and doesn't fire a beam as the MUTO flies off. You could attribute this to the MUTO disrupting his beam sure, but he still does use it against the Female MUTO, a grounded opponent whose ability is still weakening his power alongside the Male who is also there with his own power dampening ability. Second fight with the Male MUTO, he continues to go for melee with him. Ghidorah flying away in the arctic, no beam. Ghidorah on the ground, uses a beam and gets shot back in return. Ghidorah flying over the ocean, no beam just grab him out of the sky. Ghidorah wrapping around his body? Beam to the chest. Godzilla does not use his beams on Aerial Opponents. He'd rather let them come to him and then tear them apart in person and use his beams like so. The only time he ever shoots a beam into the sky, is against jet fighters in GvK. Even then, he recoiled when a single jet fighter crashed into his chest. And unlike those Jets who mostly fly straight, the Gyaos can dodge. They fly straight when firing their beam for prolonged periods sure, but then the moment they see a fireball coming towards them, they get the hell out of dodge for as long as they can.
There's quite a lot of wrong here. First of all, the fact that Godzilla shot at the jet at all should tell you that he's not just gonna stand there like an idiot as Gyaos flies circles around him while shooting. Once the other two Kaiju are dead, he's gonna shoot back at the Gyaos.

Also, how you interpret your examples for why he wouldn't shoot is faulty. The Muto thing is all just you ignoring context, he's tired and low on nuclear energy. Their power set is explicitly lowering his ability to generate more energy. As a result, using his atomic breath is energy extensive(he collapses after expending energy on a quick charge). No, he can't make much usage of it, or he's just gonna put a massive drain on his already heavily limited power supply.

Once he's energized and not surrounded by walking power blockers, he can get spammy with it no problem. Why he didn't shoot down Ghidorah? Well....



His intention was clearly some more melee. Than Ghidorah all of a sudden goes "fuck this" and flies off. More spesificly, he leaps hundreds of meters/a fucking kilometer into the air and flies out of sight within the timeframe that Godzilla looks up at him.

Basically, imagine that you had an angry Secretary Bird on your lawn. It's a foggy night, and it had just broken (insert expensive thing here) and you rush up to punch it in the face. You are also armed with a gun but you're only gonna use it if you absolutely have to. Suddenly the thing takes off like fucking Superman. As in, it's far over your head and gone just as you look up. You're not gonna have any time to actually shoot the thing.

Add to the fact that Godzilla was gonna follow Ghidorah anyway and has an ambush plan at sea anyway. He can afford to miss a shot that he barely had the chance to make anyway. Using this as an example to say that Godzilla isn't gonna shoot at something that's constantly flying around him and shooting, with absolutely zero inclination of getting close to him, seems nonsensical. He shot at Kong who was behaving almost exactly like the Gyaos behave, just from the ground. When he had the energy he shot down an annoying pest (the jet). He's gonna shoot down an even bigger pest, that's obvious.

You wouldn't shoot a little kid for stepping on your foot, but Iris still bothered with firing sonic beams at two fighter jets whose bullets bounced off him.
We all deal with flies using lethal force don't we? Lethal force against a similarly sized opponent isn't warranted when attacked unless the attack is genuinely dangerous.


There is a difference between being hit with a plasma blast on an armored outside, and having one shoved into the giant hole in your chest. One hits armor, the other hits all the soft inner bits. If a single plasma blast was all it would have taken to beat Iris, then Gamera should have fired his plasma blast not at his arm, but at Iris, the monster he had his fist inside, and was standing right in front of him. But no, he instead decided to blow up his arm and form a fire arm, to then shove INSIDE a hole he made in the chest of his enemy. He had several moments to attempt to do so during their pushing match, but instead he decided to continue a pushing match instead of doing a plasma blast which you say could beat Iris.

If you were wearing a bulletproof vest, you can survive a shot to the chest with a shotgun. If you have a massive gaping hole in that bulletproof armor, that shotgun is going to tear right through your body. See? I can make bullet analogies that make sense too.
You know, non of this proves that his armor can stand up to a plasma blast without getting maimed right? Your analogy would work if Iris' armor had taken a plasma blast before, but it hasn't.

As for my proof for why Iris' armor just wouldn't have held up? Why that first bombardment would have killed him if it had landed? Well, it's all shown by the plasma fist.



By your own admit , the plasma fist isn't that far above the regular plasma blast. Well, Iris has been so thoroughly desecrated by it that all that's left are his guts and head. No sign of his armor anywhere, despite it taking a relatively small portion of the blast compared to his insides.

To reiterate, Iris' insides took much more of the blast than his armor, and yet his guts are more intact than said armor. If a guy wearing a suit of armor had a bomb explode next to him and he lived, you'd conclude that the armor is tough enough to defend him from the bomb, atleast to an extent. If that bomb exploded inside the armor, he's dead, the armor may remain intact despite the explosion, but he's still dead.

Now imagine that the bomb detonated inside of the armor, but instead of only killing the guy, the armor was blown to hell. Would you then assume that the armor is tough enough to tank the explosion from the outside?

Ofcourse you wouldn't, no one would. It would be idiotic to think that it would fare any better, it got annihilated, and that's that. And that's why Iris would have died if he had gotten blasted by that bombardment. He knew this, hence his defensive action.

Again, just because you have a bullet proof shield doesn't mean that using it make you tough enough to tank a bullet.
*melee analysis and scenarios*
You know, all that stuff you said about Iris' melee would be worth while if Iris was on Godzilla's strength and speed level.

He's not. He moves in slow motion compared to Godzilla in a fist fight. And that says nothing of how cripplingly passive Gamera was after the initial tackle. Like seriously, his only melee maneuvers after that was to grab Iris by his shoulders(after Iris had pulled the spear out) and slowly push him into the train station. The claw stab came as a surprise attack, after Gamera had layed on the ground for minutes on end.

None of this describes Godzilla, when Godzilla tackles, his foes feet leave the ground. Iris isn't gonna be stabbing at someone who does damn near nothing in retaliation, he's gonna be getting thrown around like a rag doll. That's the big difference.

Also, when did Gamera ever bite Legion? From what I've seen, she's the only Heisei Kaiju to never get bitten by him.

You're attempting to justify Iris dragging Gamera with him. But even then it just doesn't work. Doesn't he realize that Gamera could smash or shoot her at any moment? Doesn't he realize that if Gamera so much as brushes up against the wrong wall, she gets crushed by debris. Gamera could throw Iris into her. He could make Iris crush her by accident. ect ect. I could go on about this, but you get the point. There's so many ways in which that could have gone wrong that doing so is simply not worth the risk in any context. Especially when he could have just won the fight, killed his enemy, and dragged his enemy's corpse over to dismember. She did say "kill" after all, when they were quite some distance from the train station. Again, Iris is an idiot.

Also, in response to your "Godzilla pins Legion but Iris walks up to him from behind" scenario.

Ahem



Iris' footsteps are loud and obvious. He's gonna hear him coming.

And Legion and her horn? Gamera, a Kaiju who's not as physically strong as Godzilla pulled them out. He didn't yank around or anything, he just pulled back. A physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju who would yank them around is gonna remove them much faster. And no he's not gonna "stand on her roaring in victory" when he's got other opponents to deal with. He'll do that when the fights done, not in the middle of it.

Also, Legion standing up with her laser whips thrashing is a target that's just begging to be blasted. She wastes too much time brandishing them. She's gonna get shot and that's assuming that Godzilla didn't already finish her when she was down, which is extremely unlikely.

And yet that stab to the stomach knocked gamera out for several minutes. Yes Gamera is not the most durable, but getting stabbed in the gut is still a stab in the gut. You can survive a stab to the gut, but you'll still end up going into shock with a large stab wound to the gut. You could Argue that Godzilla would be fine with this considering he took an axe to the leg and the muto's constantly cutting away at him, but the Muto's got Skin Deep at most.
Not like Iris is gonna get any deeper, especially against an opponent whos gonna be kicking his non existent teeth in from the get go.

Except, Gamera wasn't conviently still for no reason. He was conveniently still, cause he had his hand shoved inside Iris's chest, and his back against a literal wall. They were fighting inside a train station after all. And Godzilla is always still when he fires his beams, or when he stomps down on his downed enemies to roar in their face. If that isn't him being still, then I don't know what to tell ya.
He's not gonna just stomp and brag when he's got other opponents within sight to deal with.
You also tend to forget this is a 4 on 1 fight here, 2 on 1 if we aren't including the Gyaos's scratch damage with their beams. The thing is, Godzilla has always focused his attention on one monster at a time in his fights. He stopped to roar at the Female MUTO when just moments before, the Male MUTO was dragging him around, all because she tackled him into a building. The Male attacks him, and he goes to snap at him, upon which the Female stabs him in the side. He did the exact same thing twice, and got the exact same punishment, being a hit by the other enemy he knew was right there. Now let's go off your scenario.
Uh huh, big thing is that the Mutos are relentless. His opponents here are not. With the only one who fits the bill as such being a none threat anyway.
Godzilla is going to rush Legion as you say, and he's going to be charging through several sonic rays that are scratching him and making him itchy at most. As he does that, Legion and Iris are both going to be walking towards him as he rushes forth. And what is the first thing he is going to do? He's going to try to push Legion to the ground, presumably aiming for that large horn of hers considering it's basically half her face. Legion might attempt her whole lifting up her body to slam her face into her opponent thing or she could rush forth and try to poke him with her horn. He could go for the shoulder grab and bite Legion's neck sure, but that still leaves him trying to push Legion to the ground, the same thing Gamera tried to do and got pushed back. And with him grappling that horn or her shoulder and trying to push Legion back and to the ground, that leaves him in the same exact predicament as Gamera, where the two back legs come forth and attempt to stab into him. See the problem here? Let's say he manages to somehow knock Legion to the ground and pins her underfoot. By the time that happens, Iris is going to be right there after its slow walk ready to stab him. Let's say he then turns his attention to Iris and goes to grapple Iris, which then leaves him open to the beam Legion has right beneath him. If he doesn't go for Iris, then Iris is going to get a stab on him to get his attention, thus gaining his attention, and releasing Legion from her pin, letting her either get back up or once more, attempt to fire a beam.
I see a problem with your scenario. Legion only used her legs as stabbing weapons once in the entire movie. And she wasn't doing it by stabbing from above. So that's another example of behavior being afforded to her.

Also, I don't see why Legion wouldn't find herself being overpowered here. When faced with a physical peer, Godzilla generated a notable shockwave (Antarctica fight). And he's been seen throwing around greater weights before, there's no reason for Legion not to fall victim to this.

Iris gets destroyed in melee for reasons already layed out.
Let's say he manages to tear off that horn, the same way Gamera does, by her charging towards him with it opened up like an idiot. Then what? Legion is going to fall to the ground like she's dead and Godzilla is going to knock her over, stomping on her and roaring to the sky in victory like he tends to do against his enemies. Upon which, she is going to get up and start whipping him with those red whips, and Iris presumably will be there by then.
Already addressed this. And every other scenario unquoted above.

He does not do well with multiple fast and aggressive opponents. Even against Ghidorah, he aimed for one head at a time, leading the other two heads to then get hits in on him.
Edited in a very important detail. The only guys who that descriptor appies to are harmless in terms of practical damage. The rest don't qualify for such a description.
Remember, this is the same Godzilla who got elbow dropped by a big monkey with no powers later on in his career while trying to hit a beam off multiple times. Proof that his beam can be redirected with a powerful blow, something his opponents can very much do. The Same Godzilla, who canonically lost his territory and his original lair to another giant monkey in the past if we take Godzilla Dominion's talk of his past rival Kong driving him out of his lair a long time ago as Pre-Supercharged Godzilla. In a fight in Melee one on one, Godzilla will beat them. Together, he has less of a chance. Two of them at the same time while two mosquitos fire beams down on him from above, and he's got way too many distractions at once to handle.
Hu huh, I know. Common sense would tell me that redirecting his head changes to aim of the beam.

Also, why are you bringing up a past failure that does nothing to benefit his opponents, don't apply to them in anyway, and happened when he was blatantly younger and less powerful? I could beat up Mike Tyson when he was 12, where's my boxing champion title?

You see my point? It makes no sense to hold a past failure against him when he wasn't as strong. In terms of his record against Kongs, we see in the oppening credits that Godzilla has faced Kongs in the past over the centuries. Notice how he's still around and those Kong mysteriously went missing...... That would explain why he was so familiar with the axe, because he's seen it and killed users of it.

And in terms of that one Kong, he later killed him. We see that Kong's damaged, disembodied skull in one of his layers.

And yet, the first time she uses her beam in the second fight with gamera, is at point blank with Gamera pinned beneath her. If it doesn't cross her mind for long periods of time like you say, then she wouldn't have attempted to beam him point blank in that instance, and instead went for a horn stab or something instead. The only reason she didn't do so beforehand, was because she was trying to get her swarm to kill Gamera for her.
She didn't try that until she'd been grappling him for a while. Yes, it didn't cross her mind for a long time.

Also, I detailed a while ago on why trying that would be a horrible idea for her. It can't end well for her in any way.

Once more, he had the Female pinned, then the Male pulled him off her yes. But in doing so, she recovered and barreled into him. Same thing will happen here with Legion and Iris. If he goes for Legion first, that gives Iris the time to get close enough to start attacking as well. If he attacks Iris first, then he chose the wrong target as that leaves Legion open to rush him from the side and start stabbing and cutting.

Yes it's easy to ignore two kids shooting you with water pistols. But it's also another thing when you are fighting another person, then start fighting the guy who pulled you off that other person and focus on them so much you forget the first person who then returns swingin. Which is what will happen here if Iris or legion are close enough for the other to retaliate during their pushing match with Godzilla.
Not if Godzilla knocks away Iris so he can focus on Legion. After all, he bulldozed Kong, he can do worse to the skinnier Iris.

And before anything is said about Legion's burst of speed. Her speed came after an extremely
I mean that Legion might get hit by the Gyaos when Godzilla is attacking. They might miss when shooting at him, or he might move in a manner that puts Legion in the line of fire.
By that same logic, the beams should scatter off Legion the same way they do to Gamera since she is covered in a silicon exoskeleton. Having taken the Mana Blast for as long as she did, those glancing beams are going to be the exact same thing that'll happen to Godzilla and to Gamera when it hits his shell. It'll bounce off.
Not excatly the same logic, butok. Anyway, it's not hard to imagine that something as big as Legion would still be in the potential line of fire.
Let's assume this quick shot of his is the killing Female MUTO charge time, which is about three seconds to charge and fire from what I counted. Now let's also go by Legion's quickest beam fire, which took about 3 to 4 seconds to fire. One of these beams does bigger explosions and pierces its enemies. The other on the other hand, pushes back and burns its enemies. Now when these two beams clash, one is going to beat back the other, and it's not going to be Godzilla's beam, for the simple fact that Legion's beam has better piercing power than Godzilla's own. We've seen how his weaker beam does against a stronger beam in the form of the Proton Scream. If Legion can sustain fire with her beam, she'll beat him back provided it hits the beam and not the ground in front of Godzilla.
>Implying that she has the aim to connect her beam to another one.


Ignoring that, her beam comes out like a cannon shot. It's not extended at all. So she's not gonna win out in a beam war.

That and Godzilla's breath over penetrated rows of buildings, it's gonna win out.

And yet he missed Ghidorah, who was on the ground. The Gyaos are in the air. They are going to be flying around that beam if he is firing at them. Plus any moment he spends firing beams at the gyaos is a wasted beam that could be spent firing at someone like Legion or Iris. The Hyper Gyaos do avoid many of Gamera's shots, but it's only when they are hit that they freeze up. Which won't matter cause the moment they do get hit by that beam, they're most likely either very injured by it or dead.
Ghidorah dodged, and Godzilla sweeps to hit actively running targets.
My point exactly. Ghidorah Dodged the beam. The Gyaos are also fairly good at dodging for a while. The only time Godzilla ever used his beam to sweep against a moving target, was when he was supercharged and fighting Kong. Every other time, he used it against a stationary opponent, who then either dodged or took the hit cause they were too slow to dodge or it was a point blank blow.
This falls apart once you compare what their dodging.

https://i.imgur.com/yYd6Jr1.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/NDOZu04.mp4



Notice how the plasma blasts are much less speedy than Godzilla's atomic breath. With Gamera, they can afford to take a second or so to avoid. With Godzilla, they would have been at least maimed, but more likely annihilated by that time.

No, they're not gonna be dodging it once he targets them.

Here you go then, a majority of Godzilla's Beams in the Monsterverse. Female MUTO gets pushed back and knocked down, and only burns completely with the beam down the throat move. Ghidorah dodged the first time, then took the supercharged one with it only pushing him back away from Godzilla. Only time it burned Ghidorah, was down the throat, with the supercharged beam. The ones in GvK are supercharged with the possible exception of the Proton Scream beam battle cause he had been using his beam extensively beforehand.
Glowy eyes don't translate to supper charge. His supercharge was a one and done power up.
But let's assume that his beam is about as strong as the one he used against the Apex Facility then shall we? Here is him using it on the Apex Facility. Head to 48 seconds in since I can't get timecoded urls to work on here.


Him sweeping his breath across the facility causes some explosions larger than him with a majority being up to his knees at most.

Now let's look at Legion using her beam against human military shall we? Head to 4 minutes and 23 seconds to see her using her beam against the military, since I can't get the forum youtube thing to work with time placed links.



One sweep of her beam, and a massive chain reaction of continuous explosions larger than her, something consistent with each use of her beam against the ground. I wonder which beam is stronger here?
So you're measuring stick is the explosions it generates? Said explosions that can be inflated by the fact that she blew up tanks full of feul?

I have a better one, the work it does. Notice how when Godzilla's atomic breath hits anything that isn't a hyper durable Kaiju, the target gets thermally deleted. Even a minor wisp of his breath touching a building deletes whatever gets touched.

Add to the fact that he can push around similarly sized opponents with it, or even throw them. Than yeah, I'd bet on his beam being stronger.
Legion's use of her beams tend to cause chain explosions with each hit against the ground, and they tend to pierce right through whatever they hit. They tear right through Gamera, whose durability is questionable, meaning they might strike and explode against Godzilla. Where Godzilla's beams are more of a kinetic force, Legion's is more of an explosive blast, the types of attacks Godzilla does not take well to if his reaction to various missiles and explosives hitting him is anything to go by. He can take the hit, but it still bothers him enough for him to recoil in pain.
Said missles aren't normal in any sense.

Anyway, I know that Legion's beam would do damage if it hit, but her aim sucks ass and the damage shouldn't exceed what King Ghidorah did with his chain lightning barrage.
As for Iris, its own beams were able to sheer right into Gamera's shell where the Gyaos's own sonic beams couldn't do so at all. A Gamera whose body has now adapted to reflecting these sonic beams back like a mirror using his hand. Iris also has the problem with using his enemies power against him, which if he does so, will only make Godzilla stronger so that there will set Iris and his team back if he does that again. Then again, Iris only uses his beams when he is pressured. Like getting buzzsawed or having a fist in his chest.
The beams that he forgets about on land? Oh, how useful.

Even if he uses them, they should inflcit damage similar to Muto Prime's claws. But that would mean that Iris just signed his own death warrant, as Godzilla would immediately drop what he's doing to rip him apart.

But, he doesn't use them anyway.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They won't be cooperating well, but they'll be doing damage at least. Legion can be deadly and she can be fast when she wants to be, or when the CGI is with her. Iris is in the same boat here. He most likely will be fighting Godzilla if we go by the assumption he absorbed Ayana or is acting under the order of Kill. Otherwise he will immediately fly away to find Ayana. The Gyaos will be beaming down on Godzilla, and it might not do much but he's going to be annoyed by two giant flying reptiles constantly trying to attack him, and if the Male MUTO could distract him and pull him off the Female MUTO, the Gyaos would be able to do the same.
They just lack the speed and ferocity. Godzilla has the durability to whether attacks and the strength and ferocity to rip in.
Legion brings the speed and ferocity with her. Iris is just there to get a stab in whenever the battle gets close to him. Godzilla has the durability to take their attacks, but he mostly relies on the same pushing tactics Gamera and Iris use in order to knock down an enemy and then stomp them into the ground. A tactic which might not work against Legion if she digs her claws into the ground. It'll work against Iris, but Legion is also a problem in this fight. And we see that sharp enough objects can stab into Godzilla's hide with enough force, which Iris can pull if it can get a hit off while Godzilla is occupied with Legion.
You say this like she's a stab happy beast and not someone who literally just pushes for 90% of her melee encounters. No, she isn't ferocious in any context.
Last edited by Godzilla2020 on Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Godzilla2020 wrote: Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:38 pm Late again, was busy as all hell.

Just something to note, if you (or anyone) wants to continue, it may take me a week or two to reply. Just a heads up.
No worries. I enjoy these once a month arguments we have. Forces me to research and watch monsters fight if anything.
You know, non of this proves that his armor can stand up to a plasma blast without getting maimed right? Your analogy would work if Iris' armor had taken a plasma blast before, but it hasn't.

As for my proof for why Iris' armor just wouldn't have held up? Why that first bombardment would have killed him if it had landed? Well, it's all shown by the plasma fist.



By your own admit , the plasma fist isn't that far above the regular plasma blast. Well, Iris has been so thoroughly desecrated by it that all that's left are his guts and head. No sign of his armor anywhere, despite it taking a relatively small portion of the blast compared to his insides.

To reiterate, Iris' insides took much more of the blast than his armor, and yet his guts are more intact than said armor. If a guy wearing a suit of armor had a bomb explode next to him and he lived, you'd conclude that the armor is tough enough to defend him from the bomb, atleast to an extent. If that bomb exploded inside the armor, he's dead, the armor may remain intact despite the explosion, but he's still dead.

Now imagine that the bomb detonated inside of the armor, but instead of only killing the guy, the armor was blown to hell. Would you then assume that the armor is tough enough to tank the explosion from the outside?

Of course you wouldn't, no one would. It would be idiotic to think that it would fare any better, it got annihilated, and that's that. And that's why Iris would have died if he had gotten blasted by that bombardment. He knew this, hence his defensive action.

Again, just because you have a bullet proof shield doesn't mean that using it make you tough enough to tank a bullet.
Ah yes, a head and guts, though those guts are actually his tentacles but still. Also, you forget one major importance in an explosion within the body. Everything most likely was thrown outward by the explosion. How the head is down there with the tentacles makes no sense at all however considering everything else but the head and tentacles were gone. An explosion within an armor is still going to send that armor flying about in pieces. Armor isn't meant to protect from within, it's supposed to protect from outside. Of course an explosion from within would send all that shit flying or burning. It's the same thing that Godzilla does against the mutos here. The beam hurts on the outside, but burns on the inside. Of course it's going to do more damage when you spark an energy attack within your enemy.
*melee analysis and scenarios*
You know, all that stuff you said about Iris' melee would be worth while if Iris was on Godzilla's strength and speed level.

He's not. He moves in slow motion compared to Godzilla in a fist fight. And that says nothing of how cripplingly passive Gamera was after the initial tackle. Like seriously, his only melee maneuvers after that was to grab Iris by his shoulders(after Iris had pulled the spear out) and slowly push him into the train station. The claw stab came as a surprise attack, after Gamera had layed on the ground for minutes on end.

None of this describes Godzilla, when Godzilla tackles, his foes feet leave the ground. Iris isn't gonna be stabbing at someone who does damn near nothing in retaliation, he's gonna be getting thrown around like a rag doll. That's the big difference.

Also, when did Gamera ever bite Legion? From what I've seen, she's the only Heisei Kaiju to never get bitten by him.

You're attempting to justify Iris dragging Gamera with him. But even then it just doesn't work. Doesn't he realize that Gamera could smash or shoot her at any moment? Doesn't he realize that if Gamera so much as brushes up against the wrong wall, she gets crushed by debris. Gamera could throw Iris into her. He could make Iris crush her by accident. ect ect. I could go on about this, but you get the point. There's so many ways in which that could have gone wrong that doing so is simply not worth the risk in any context. Especially when he could have just won the fight, killed his enemy, and dragged his enemy's corpse over to dismember. She did say "kill" after all, when they were quite some distance from the train station. Again, Iris is an idiot.

Also, in response to your "Godzilla pins Legion but Iris walks up to him from behind" scenario.

Ahem



Iris' footsteps are loud and obvious. He's gonna hear him coming.

And Legion and her horn? Gamera, a Kaiju who's not as physically strong as Godzilla pulled them out. He didn't yank around or anything, he just pulled back. A physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju who would yank them around is gonna remove them much faster. And no he's not gonna "stand on her roaring in victory" when he's got other opponents to deal with. He'll do that when the fights done, not in the middle of it.

Also, Legion standing up with her laser whips thrashing is a target that's just begging to be blasted. She wastes too much time brandishing them. She's gonna get shot and that's assuming that Godzilla didn't already finish her when she was down, which is extremely unlikely.
I meant more towards the pushing thing for Gamera vs Legion. Godzilla goes to push his enemies to knock them to the ground. Gamera did the same thing trying to push and hold back Legion away from the helicopters, and he was still getting pushed back. I never said Iris wasn't an idiot, I said he was a glorified pet. And pets do stupid things like trying to bring their owners dangerous things they attempted to kill. And yes his footsteps are loud and obvious, he's a giant monster who was born over a week ago. He's not going to know what the hell stealth is like Godzilla does. Of course he doesn't know how the hell to fight other than stab things and push forward. He was raised as a pet.

I never said he wouldn't be able to tear off her horn, I said that her playing dead thing is going to trick him the same way it did Gamera. When Kong was laying down, supposedly left for dead, he went off to go fight Mechagodzilla. With Legion supposedly looking dead and knocked over, he's going to go target Iris or the Gyaos, leaving him very much open to when Legion stops playing dead and starts whipping him with those laser whips. I also stated that time spent trying to push Legion back is time Legion has to very much fling those two back legs forward in an attempt to stab Godzilla in the guts. He's going to attempt the pushing thing all giant monsters do, but Legion tends to drag her feet through the dirt, rooting herself to the ground to push forward. Kind of hard to push something that's dragging their feet deep in the ground as leverage. He can target the horn sure, but that very much still leaves him open to those giant legs, and the only time Gamera could manage to pry them apart was after a beam.
Except, Gamera wasn't conviently still for no reason. He was conveniently still, cause he had his hand shoved inside Iris's chest, and his back against a literal wall. They were fighting inside a train station after all. And Godzilla is always still when he fires his beams, or when he stomps down on his downed enemies to roar in their face. If that isn't him being still, then I don't know what to tell ya.
He's not gonna just stomp and brag when he's got other opponents within sight to deal with.
Less the bragging thing and more he starts charging a beam after pinning down his enemy thing.
You also tend to forget this is a 4 on 1 fight here, 2 on 1 if we aren't including the Gyaos's scratch damage with their beams. The thing is, Godzilla has always focused his attention on one monster at a time in his fights. He stopped to roar at the Female MUTO when just moments before, the Male MUTO was dragging him around, all because she tackled him into a building. The Male attacks him, and he goes to snap at him, upon which the Female stabs him in the side. He did the exact same thing twice, and got the exact same punishment, being a hit by the other enemy he knew was right there. Now let's go off your scenario.
Uh huh, big thing is that the Mutos are relentless. His opponents here are not. With the only one who fits the bill as such being a none threat anyway.
At least three of his opponents here are relentless in some form. Legion charges forward and the Gyaos continuously beam down their enemies. Iris is slow sure, but he's still going to be heading towards the battlefield. Let's assume the beams of the Gyaos are going to be as effective on Godzilla as G3 Gamera. They will still sting or be very bright and annoying attacks. Godzilla still focuses on one monster at a time whenever he fights. He tries to bring them down one at a time, even when both are right next to him. It doesn't change the fact that against two opponents, he tends to focus his attention on them one at a time leaving him open to attacks by other enemies. He knew the Male was around, and he went right for the Female MUTO, leaving him open to an attack all the same. It doesn't matter that the MUTO are relentless when he tends to not care where his other enemies are as he tries to tackle the one in front of him to the ground first. Any time spent trying to get Legion to the ground when she is dragging her legs is time for Iris to get closer to him.
Godzilla is going to rush Legion as you say, and he's going to be charging through several sonic rays that are scratching him and making him itchy at most. As he does that, Legion and Iris are both going to be walking towards him as he rushes forth. And what is the first thing he is going to do? He's going to try to push Legion to the ground, presumably aiming for that large horn of hers considering it's basically half her face. Legion might attempt her whole lifting up her body to slam her face into her opponent thing or she could rush forth and try to poke him with her horn. He could go for the shoulder grab and bite Legion's neck sure, but that still leaves him trying to push Legion to the ground, the same thing Gamera tried to do and got pushed back. And with him grappling that horn or her shoulder and trying to push Legion back and to the ground, that leaves him in the same exact predicament as Gamera, where the two back legs come forth and attempt to stab into him. See the problem here? Let's say he manages to somehow knock Legion to the ground and pins her underfoot. By the time that happens, Iris is going to be right there after its slow walk ready to stab him. Let's say he then turns his attention to Iris and goes to grapple Iris, which then leaves him open to the beam Legion has right beneath him. If he doesn't go for Iris, then Iris is going to get a stab on him to get his attention, thus gaining his attention, and releasing Legion from her pin, letting her either get back up or once more, attempt to fire a beam.
I see a problem with your scenario. Legion only used her legs as stabbing weapons once in the entire movie. And she wasn't doing it by stabbing from above. So that's another example of behavior being afforded to her.

Also, I don't see why Legion wouldn't find herself being overpowered here. When faced with a physical peer, Godzilla generated a notable shockwave (Antarctica fight). And he's been seen throwing around greater weights before, there's no reason for Legion not to fall victim to this.

Iris gets destroyed in melee for reasons already layed out.
I never said they stab from above. I said she's going to throw them forward to stab into him like with Gamera during the pushing match. She stabs from the side, which is even worse for Godzilla because his focus is going to be getting right in her face, and not on attacks coming from the side in an attempt to stab in in the gut or knock him over. The MUTO were able to stab into his skin, as was Scylla in Dominion. I doubt that Legion's own legs are any less capable than theirs in piercing damage. And with how much larger her legs are than the MUTOs and Scylla, they are going to be doing a lot more than small scratches to his skin. He's going to have a large gash, skin deep at minimum if we are going off the same damage those others did. Then what you may ask? The Gyaos are what's going to happen. If Legion can manage to peel portions of his armor like skin off, that leaves them unprotected to the sonic rays that were previously bouncing off his skin.

Now I'm going to assume the weight scaling for Legion is going to be around the same weight scaling as the KWC gives her as I'm too lazy to figure out the conversion from 600 tons to Monsterverse Weight Scaling. If we go by her being around that weight, then she'll be around the same weight as Ghidorah, thus making the whole shockwave thing be about the same as he did with Ghidorah, but with less focus on three extremely long necks and instead on one really large horn and body. And if we go by her weight being around the same as the Female MUTO instead of Ghidorah, then it's going to be similar to him pushing the Female MUTO, but instead of buildings being latched onto, it's going to be her legs being in the dirt.
Remember, this is the same Godzilla who got elbow dropped by a big monkey with no powers later on in his career while trying to hit a beam off multiple times. Proof that his beam can be redirected with a powerful blow, something his opponents can very much do. The Same Godzilla, who canonically lost his territory and his original lair to another giant monkey in the past if we take Godzilla Dominion's talk of his past rival Kong driving him out of his lair a long time ago as Pre-Supercharged Godzilla. In a fight in Melee one on one, Godzilla will beat them. Together, he has less of a chance. Two of them at the same time while two mosquitos fire beams down on him from above, and he's got way too many distractions at once to handle.
Uh huh, I know. Common sense would tell me that redirecting his head changes to aim of the beam.

Also, why are you bringing up a past failure that does nothing to benefit his opponents, don't apply to them in anyway, and happened when he was blatantly younger and less powerful? I could beat up Mike Tyson when he was 12, where's my boxing champion title?

You see my point? It makes no sense to hold a past failure against him when he wasn't as strong. In terms of his record against Kongs, we see in the oppening credits that Godzilla has faced Kongs in the past over the centuries. Notice how he's still around and those Kong mysteriously went missing...... That would explain why he was so familiar with the axe, because he's seen it and killed users of it.

And in terms of that one Kong, he later killed him. We see that Kong's damaged, disembodied skull in one of his layers.
Except he didn't kill that Kong. Tiamat did. He went through a specific tunnel to sharpen his scales and spines in order to face his rival for his former territory, that being the cave where the Kong Skull was. He went there to fight the Kong, but found Tiamat instead. A younger Godzilla is more likely more powerful as well, having more energy to use and more stamina than he does in the current, older age. Less experienced sure, but most likely more youthful and strong. Plus we know that there have been multiple Godzillas and Kongs in the past, Dagon and the Kong's Parents being perfect examples of that. Those cave paintings don't necessarily have to depict the Godzilla we see on screen, just like they don't depict the Kong we see in the film. Those paintings could very easily have been depicting Dagon in those battles or some other Godzilla at the time.
And yet, the first time she uses her beam in the second fight with gamera, is at point blank with Gamera pinned beneath her. If it doesn't cross her mind for long periods of time like you say, then she wouldn't have attempted to beam him point blank in that instance, and instead went for a horn stab or something instead. The only reason she didn't do so beforehand, was because she was trying to get her swarm to kill Gamera for her.
She didn't try that until she'd been grappling him for a while. Yes, it didn't cross her mind for a long time.

Also, I detailed a while ago on why trying that would be a horrible idea for her. It can't end well for her in any way.
Except the main thing you are not realizing, is that the reason she didn't go for immediate beam kill is because she was trying to get the swarm to do her dirty work for her, trying to stall out Gamera for the very deadly swarm to do so. She never does a beam when she is controlling her swarm, presumably because she can't do both at the same time. In this instance where she is without her swarm, she doesn't necessarily have to go for so long without the beam as her swarm is already wiped out. She doesn't have to multitask keeping her swarm in check while fighting an enemy, thus allowing her to focus her energy not through command of the swarm, but through her beam instead. And yes, it would be a horrible idea for her to do a point-blank beam as that also leaves her open to her horn being torn off.
Once more, he had the Female pinned, then the Male pulled him off her yes. But in doing so, she recovered and barreled into him. Same thing will happen here with Legion and Iris. If he goes for Legion first, that gives Iris the time to get close enough to start attacking as well. If he attacks Iris first, then he chose the wrong target as that leaves Legion open to rush him from the side and start stabbing and cutting.

Yes it's easy to ignore two kids shooting you with water pistols. But it's also another thing when you are fighting another person, then start fighting the guy who pulled you off that other person and focus on them so much you forget the first person who then returns swingin. Which is what will happen here if Iris or legion are close enough for the other to retaliate during their pushing match with Godzilla.
Not if Godzilla knocks away Iris so he can focus on Legion. After all, he bulldozed Kong, he can do worse to the skinnier Iris.

And before anything is said about Legion's burst of speed. Her speed came after an extremely
You didn't finish your words here, but i'm going to assume you meant after an extremely close call or something similar to that. He could knock Iris away sure, but that's still leaving him off to focus on Legion, and knocking down Iris isn't going to be enough to keep Iris out of the fight. Godzilla doesn't tend to focus on the second opponent in his fights. He goes for one at a time like most often do, leaving Iris or Legion to get back up and continue attacking when his focus is solely on the other monster. Him fighting Iris is the worst thing he can do as that leaves him open to Legion. HIm facing Legion is the far better solution, but that also leaves him open to a hit from Iris. You can knock someone away but that's not going to stop them from immediately hopping back into the fight as soon as they can.
Let's assume this quick shot of his is the killing Female MUTO charge time, which is about three seconds to charge and fire from what I counted. Now let's also go by Legion's quickest beam fire, which took about 3 to 4 seconds to fire. One of these beams does bigger explosions and pierces its enemies. The other on the other hand, pushes back and burns its enemies. Now when these two beams clash, one is going to beat back the other, and it's not going to be Godzilla's beam, for the simple fact that Legion's beam has better piercing power than Godzilla's own. We've seen how his weaker beam does against a stronger beam in the form of the Proton Scream. If Legion can sustain fire with her beam, she'll beat him back provided it hits the beam and not the ground in front of Godzilla.
Well, first of all her beam comes out like a cannon shot. It's not extended at all. So she's not gonna win out in a beam war.

That and Godzilla's breath over penetrated rows of buildings, it's gonna win out.
Just about every giant monster beam penetrates rows of buildings. Its part of the standard giant monster beam package. Legion's beam tore through a building as well, plus an entire city block after. She might not win the extended beam war, but the explosion that her beam is going to create is still going to knock him on his ass.

Ghidorah dodged, and Godzilla sweeps to hit actively running targets.
My point exactly. Ghidorah Dodged the beam. The Gyaos are also fairly good at dodging for a while. The only time Godzilla ever used his beam to sweep against a moving target, was when he was supercharged and fighting Kong. Every other time, he used it against a stationary opponent, who then either dodged or took the hit cause they were too slow to dodge or it was a point blank blow.
This falls apart once you compare what their dodging.

https://i.imgur.com/yYd6Jr1.mp4

https://i.imgur.com/NDOZu04.mp4



Notice how the plasma blasts are much less speedy than Godzilla's atomic breath. With Gamera, they can afford to take a second or so to avoid. With Godzilla, they would have been at least maimed, but more likely annihilated by that time.

No, they're not gonna be dodging it once he targets them.
And yet a monkey running around on the ground could dodge them. The Gyaos are in the sky. The moment one of them gets hit, the others going to be more wary of the beam until she inevitably gets hit.
Here you go then, a majority of Godzilla's Beams in the Monsterverse. Female MUTO gets pushed back and knocked down, and only burns completely with the beam down the throat move. Ghidorah dodged the first time, then took the supercharged one with it only pushing him back away from Godzilla. Only time it burned Ghidorah, was down the throat, with the supercharged beam. The ones in GvK are supercharged with the possible exception of the Proton Scream beam battle cause he had been using his beam extensively beforehand.
Glowy eyes don't translate to super charge. His supercharge was a one and done power up.
It still doesn't change the fact that the only time it ever burned an enemy's skin was when they either had fur, or had it shoved down their throat.
But let's assume that his beam is about as strong as the one he used against the Apex Facility then shall we? Here is him using it on the Apex Facility. Head to 48 seconds in since I can't get timecoded urls to work on here.


Him sweeping his breath across the facility causes some explosions larger than him with a majority being up to his knees at most.

Now let's look at Legion using her beam against human military shall we? Head to 4 minutes and 23 seconds to see her using her beam against the military, since I can't get the forum youtube thing to work with time placed links.



One sweep of her beam, and a massive chain reaction of continuous explosions larger than her, something consistent with each use of her beam against the ground. I wonder which beam is stronger here?
So you're measuring stick is the explosions it generates? Said explosions that can be inflated by the fact that she blew up tanks full of feul?

I have a better one, the work it does. Notice how when Godzilla's atomic breath hits anything that isn't a hyper durable Kaiju, the target gets thermally deleted. Even a minor wisp of his breath touching a building deletes whatever gets touched.

Add to the fact that he can push around similarly sized opponents with it, or even throw them. Than yeah, I'd bet on his beam being stronger.
Ah yes, the consistent chain reaction of explosions were all apparently just because there were tanks full of fuel, despite some of them being showcased to have made craters in the middle of an airfield and some others being nowhere near those same tanks in an unrelated part of the city.
Legion's use of her beams tend to cause chain explosions with each hit against the ground, and they tend to pierce right through whatever they hit. They tear right through Gamera, whose durability is questionable, meaning they might strike and explode against Godzilla. Where Godzilla's beams are more of a kinetic force, Legion's is more of an explosive blast, the types of attacks Godzilla does not take well to if his reaction to various missiles and explosives hitting him is anything to go by. He can take the hit, but it still bothers him enough for him to recoil in pain.
Said missles aren't normal in any sense.

Anyway, I know that Legion's beam would do damage if it hit, but her aim sucks ass and the damage shouldn't exceed what King Ghidorah did with his chain lightning barrage.
Ah yes, the missiles and bombardment against him on the bridge where he was roaring out in pain were not normal in any sense of the word. Neither would a large monster sized explosion right next to him do nothing against his stance at all of course. Legion's beams might not hit the monster, but they always hit somewhere around them, leading to a massive explosion immediately after.
As for Iris, its own beams were able to sheer right into Gamera's shell where the Gyaos's own sonic beams couldn't do so at all. A Gamera whose body has now adapted to reflecting these sonic beams back like a mirror using his hand. Iris also has the problem with using his enemies power against him, which if he does so, will only make Godzilla stronger so that there will set Iris and his team back if he does that again. Then again, Iris only uses his beams when he is pressured. Like getting buzzsawed or having a fist in his chest.
The beams that he forgets about on land? Oh, how useful.

Even if he uses them, they should inflcit damage similar to Muto Prime's claws. But that would mean that Iris just signed his own death warrant, as Godzilla would immediately drop what he's doing to rip him apart.

But, he doesn't use them anyway.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nothing stopping him from hypothetically just lifting Godzilla into the air. Key word being Hypothetically here. He doesn't do so in the movie, because just like him, his enemy flies. No point in lifting someone up and flying with them when they too can fly. But since that isn't something he does here, stray away from those Hypotheticals that aren't allowed due to not being seen in a film.

They just lack the speed and ferocity. Godzilla has the durability to whether attacks and the strength and ferocity to rip in.
Legion brings the speed and ferocity with her. Iris is just there to get a stab in whenever the battle gets close to him. Godzilla has the durability to take their attacks, but he mostly relies on the same pushing tactics Gamera and Iris use in order to knock down an enemy and then stomp them into the ground. A tactic which might not work against Legion if she digs her claws into the ground. It'll work against Iris, but Legion is also a problem in this fight. And we see that sharp enough objects can stab into Godzilla's hide with enough force, which Iris can pull if it can get a hit off while Godzilla is occupied with Legion.
You say this like she's a stab happy beast and not someone who literally just pushes for 90% of her melee encounters. No, she isn't ferocious in any context.
You say that like Godzilla isn't the same way, being someone who pushes and bites for most of his melee encounters. You also say that as though half of Iris's pushing wasn't with a spear in its enemy's shoulder.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

You know, we’re all too stubborn to give into the other’s side of things. You have your feats on why Godzilla Wins and I have mine on why the Gamera Villains win, and neither will give in to the other. I can respect your decision on why you believe Godzilla will win, but I am sticking by mine. Besides, I’m pretty sure a majority of the votes are on Godzilla’s side anyways so I’m going to sit here in my corner, and hope we end up having another ongoing discussion like this in another FM at some point.
A reminder to watch Chouseishin Gransazers.
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