Late again, was busy as all hell.
Just something to note, if you (or anyone) wants to continue, it may take me a week or two to reply. Just a heads up.
Nagoda wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:30 am
I will agree with them hating Melee. I was stating Hypothetical fighting, that they do not use for some stupid reason in the film. They do, however, dodge very well most of the time. It's only when they finally get hit that they freeze up and take the damage. Their sonic rays aren't going to be piercing through, but with how much they spam it, it'll annoy the poop out of Godzilla. You can ignore a scratch, but when something keeps trying to scratch you with beams, you are going to get annoyed real fast, and with how aggressive the Gyaos are, those sonic beam scratches are going to annoy the hell out of Godzilla.
Let's put it in another term shall we? It'll be like being bit by a mosquito bite, an irritation that constantly comes back and leaves you itchy. You can ignore it sure, but the mosquito will constantly come back and bite you some more. In Godzilla's case, its two beams scattering across his body. Beams he can ignore yes, but beams that will irritate him constantly with how constant the Gyaos fire them.
Well, mosquito bites have other factors that make them exceedingly irritating that Gyaos beams don't have (bumps left behind, itchy as fuck, itching hurts but simultaneously almost makes you want to scratch some more, potential illness contracted). Gyaos beams leaving less than paper cut damage is gonna be ignorable for however long it takes for Godzilla to kill whoever he's currently mauling. That and reptiles have some of the highest pain tolerance in the animal kingdom. If Godzilla's not feeling himself get legitimately stabbed or something, he's gonna ignore it in favor of killing the big guy he's targeted(likely Legion).
But let's go with how you say Godzilla will take out the Gyaos. You state that he's going to beam them down yes? Has he ever shown that he was willing to beam down an opponent who was in the air, ever in his various fights? The first fight with the male muto, he goes for melee with him, and doesn't fire a beam as the MUTO flies off. You could attribute this to the MUTO disrupting his beam sure, but he still does use it against the Female MUTO, a grounded opponent whose ability is still weakening his power alongside the Male who is also there with his own power dampening ability. Second fight with the Male MUTO, he continues to go for melee with him. Ghidorah flying away in the arctic, no beam. Ghidorah on the ground, uses a beam and gets shot back in return. Ghidorah flying over the ocean, no beam just grab him out of the sky. Ghidorah wrapping around his body? Beam to the chest. Godzilla does not use his beams on Aerial Opponents. He'd rather let them come to him and then tear them apart in person and use his beams like so. The only time he ever shoots a beam into the sky, is against jet fighters in GvK. Even then, he recoiled when a single jet fighter crashed into his chest. And unlike those Jets who mostly fly straight, the Gyaos can dodge. They fly straight when firing their beam for prolonged periods sure, but then the moment they see a fireball coming towards them, they get the hell out of dodge for as long as they can.
There's quite a lot of wrong here. First of all, the fact that Godzilla shot at the jet at all should tell you that he's not just gonna stand there like an idiot as Gyaos flies circles around him while shooting. Once the other two Kaiju are dead, he's gonna shoot back at the Gyaos.
Also, how you interpret your examples for why he wouldn't shoot is faulty. The Muto thing is all just you ignoring context, he's tired and low on nuclear energy. Their power set is explicitly lowering his ability to generate more energy. As a result, using his atomic breath is energy extensive(he collapses after expending energy on a quick charge). No, he can't make much usage of it, or he's just gonna put a massive drain on his already heavily limited power supply.
Once he's energized and not surrounded by walking power blockers, he can get spammy with it no problem. Why he didn't shoot down Ghidorah? Well....
His intention was clearly some more melee. Than Ghidorah all of a sudden goes "fuck this" and flies off. More spesificly, he leaps hundreds of meters/a fucking kilometer into the air and flies out of sight within the timeframe that Godzilla looks up at him.
Basically, imagine that you had an angry Secretary Bird on your lawn. It's a foggy night, and it had just broken (insert expensive thing here) and you rush up to punch it in the face. You are also armed with a gun but you're only gonna use it if you absolutely have to. Suddenly the thing takes off like fucking Superman. As in, it's far over your head and gone just as you look up. You're not gonna have any time to actually shoot the thing.
Add to the fact that Godzilla was gonna follow Ghidorah anyway and has an ambush plan at sea anyway. He can afford to miss a shot that he barely had the chance to make anyway. Using this as an example to say that Godzilla isn't gonna shoot at something that's constantly flying around him and shooting, with absolutely zero inclination of getting close to him, seems nonsensical. He shot at Kong who was behaving almost exactly like the Gyaos behave, just from the ground. When he had the energy he shot down an annoying pest (the jet). He's gonna shoot down an even bigger pest, that's obvious.
You wouldn't shoot a little kid for stepping on your foot, but Iris still bothered with firing sonic beams at two fighter jets whose bullets bounced off him.
We all deal with flies using lethal force don't we? Lethal force against a similarly sized opponent isn't warranted when attacked unless the attack is genuinely dangerous.
There is a difference between being hit with a plasma blast on an armored outside, and having one shoved into the giant hole in your chest. One hits armor, the other hits all the soft inner bits. If a single plasma blast was all it would have taken to beat Iris, then Gamera should have fired his plasma blast not at his arm, but at Iris, the monster he had his fist inside, and was standing right in front of him. But no, he instead decided to blow up his arm and form a fire arm, to then shove INSIDE a hole he made in the chest of his enemy. He had several moments to attempt to do so during their pushing match, but instead he decided to continue a pushing match instead of doing a plasma blast which you say could beat Iris.
If you were wearing a bulletproof vest, you can survive a shot to the chest with a shotgun. If you have a massive gaping hole in that bulletproof armor, that shotgun is going to tear right through your body. See? I can make bullet analogies that make sense too.
You know, non of this proves that his armor can stand up to a plasma blast without getting maimed right? Your analogy would work if Iris' armor had taken a plasma blast before, but it hasn't.
As for my proof for why Iris' armor just wouldn't have held up? Why that first bombardment would have killed him if it had landed? Well, it's all shown by the plasma fist.
By your own admit , the plasma fist isn't that far above the regular plasma blast. Well, Iris has been so thoroughly desecrated by it that all that's left are his guts and head. No sign of his armor anywhere, despite it taking a relatively small portion of the blast compared to his insides.
To reiterate,
Iris' insides took much more of the blast than his armor, and yet his guts are more intact than said armor. If a guy wearing a suit of armor had a bomb explode next to him and he lived, you'd conclude that the armor is tough enough to defend him from the bomb, atleast to an extent. If that bomb exploded inside the armor, he's dead, the armor may remain intact despite the explosion, but he's still dead.
Now imagine that the bomb detonated inside of the armor, but instead of only killing the guy, the armor was blown to hell. Would you then assume that the armor is tough enough to tank the explosion from the outside?
Ofcourse you wouldn't, no one would. It would be idiotic to think that it would fare any better, it got annihilated, and that's that. And that's why Iris would have died if he had gotten blasted by that bombardment. He knew this, hence his defensive action.
Again, just because you have a bullet proof shield doesn't mean that using it make you tough enough to tank a bullet.
*melee analysis and scenarios*
You know, all that stuff you said about Iris' melee would be worth while if Iris was on Godzilla's strength and speed level.
He's not. He moves in slow motion compared to Godzilla in a fist fight. And that says nothing of how cripplingly passive Gamera was after the initial tackle. Like seriously, his only melee maneuvers after that was to grab Iris by his shoulders(after Iris had pulled the spear out) and slowly push him into the train station. The claw stab came as a surprise attack, after Gamera had layed on the ground for minutes on end.
None of this describes Godzilla, when Godzilla tackles, his foes feet leave the ground. Iris isn't gonna be stabbing at someone who does damn near nothing in retaliation, he's gonna be getting thrown around like a rag doll. That's the big difference.
Also, when did Gamera ever bite Legion? From what I've seen, she's the only Heisei Kaiju to never get bitten by him.
You're attempting to justify Iris dragging Gamera with him. But even then it just doesn't work. Doesn't he realize that Gamera could smash or shoot her at any moment? Doesn't he realize that if Gamera so much as brushes up against the wrong wall, she gets crushed by debris. Gamera could throw Iris into her. He could make Iris crush her by accident. ect ect. I could go on about this, but you get the point. There's so many ways in which that could have gone wrong that doing so is simply not worth the risk in any context. Especially when he could have just won the fight, killed his enemy, and dragged his enemy's corpse over to dismember. She did say "kill" after all, when they were quite some distance from the train station. Again, Iris is an idiot.
Also, in response to your "Godzilla pins Legion but Iris walks up to him from behind" scenario.
Ahem
Iris' footsteps are loud and obvious. He's gonna hear him coming.
And Legion and her horn? Gamera, a Kaiju who's not as physically strong as Godzilla pulled them out. He didn't yank around or anything, he just pulled back. A physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju who would yank them around is gonna remove them much faster. And no he's not gonna "stand on her roaring in victory" when he's got other opponents to deal with. He'll do that when the fights done, not in the middle of it.
Also, Legion standing up with her laser whips thrashing is a target that's just begging to be blasted. She wastes too much time brandishing them. She's gonna get shot and that's assuming that Godzilla didn't already finish her when she was down, which is extremely unlikely.
And yet that stab to the stomach knocked gamera out for several minutes. Yes Gamera is not the most durable, but getting stabbed in the gut is still a stab in the gut. You can survive a stab to the gut, but you'll still end up going into shock with a large stab wound to the gut. You could Argue that Godzilla would be fine with this considering he took an axe to the leg and the muto's constantly cutting away at him, but the Muto's got Skin Deep at most.
Not like Iris is gonna get any deeper, especially against an opponent whos gonna be kicking his non existent teeth in from the get go.
Except, Gamera wasn't conviently still for no reason. He was conveniently still, cause he had his hand shoved inside Iris's chest, and his back against a literal wall. They were fighting inside a train station after all. And Godzilla is always still when he fires his beams, or when he stomps down on his downed enemies to roar in their face. If that isn't him being still, then I don't know what to tell ya.
He's not gonna just stomp and brag when he's got other opponents within sight to deal with.
You also tend to forget this is a 4 on 1 fight here, 2 on 1 if we aren't including the Gyaos's scratch damage with their beams. The thing is, Godzilla has always focused his attention on one monster at a time in his fights. He stopped to roar at the Female MUTO when just moments before, the Male MUTO was dragging him around, all because she tackled him into a building. The Male attacks him, and he goes to snap at him, upon which the Female stabs him in the side. He did the exact same thing twice, and got the exact same punishment, being a hit by the other enemy he knew was right there. Now let's go off your scenario.
Uh huh, big thing is that the Mutos are relentless. His opponents here are not. With the only one who fits the bill as such being a none threat anyway.
Godzilla is going to rush Legion as you say, and he's going to be charging through several sonic rays that are scratching him and making him itchy at most. As he does that, Legion and Iris are both going to be walking towards him as he rushes forth. And what is the first thing he is going to do? He's going to try to push Legion to the ground, presumably aiming for that large horn of hers considering it's basically half her face. Legion might attempt her whole lifting up her body to slam her face into her opponent thing or she could rush forth and try to poke him with her horn. He could go for the shoulder grab and bite Legion's neck sure, but that still leaves him trying to push Legion to the ground, the same thing Gamera tried to do and got pushed back. And with him grappling that horn or her shoulder and trying to push Legion back and to the ground, that leaves him in the same exact predicament as Gamera, where the two back legs come forth and attempt to stab into him. See the problem here? Let's say he manages to somehow knock Legion to the ground and pins her underfoot. By the time that happens, Iris is going to be right there after its slow walk ready to stab him. Let's say he then turns his attention to Iris and goes to grapple Iris, which then leaves him open to the beam Legion has right beneath him. If he doesn't go for Iris, then Iris is going to get a stab on him to get his attention, thus gaining his attention, and releasing Legion from her pin, letting her either get back up or once more, attempt to fire a beam.
I see a problem with your scenario. Legion only used her legs as stabbing weapons once in the entire movie. And she wasn't doing it by stabbing from above. So that's another example of behavior being afforded to her.
Also, I don't see why Legion wouldn't find herself being overpowered here. When faced with a physical peer, Godzilla generated a notable shockwave (Antarctica fight). And he's been seen throwing around greater weights before, there's no reason for Legion not to fall victim to this.
Iris gets destroyed in melee for reasons already layed out.
Let's say he manages to tear off that horn, the same way Gamera does, by her charging towards him with it opened up like an idiot. Then what? Legion is going to fall to the ground like she's dead and Godzilla is going to knock her over, stomping on her and roaring to the sky in victory like he tends to do against his enemies. Upon which, she is going to get up and start whipping him with those red whips, and Iris presumably will be there by then.
Already addressed this. And every other scenario unquoted above.
He does not do well with multiple fast and aggressive opponents. Even against Ghidorah, he aimed for one head at a time, leading the other two heads to then get hits in on him.
Edited in a very important detail. The only guys who that descriptor appies to are harmless in terms of practical damage. The rest don't qualify for such a description.
Remember, this is the same Godzilla who got elbow dropped by a big monkey with no powers later on in his career while trying to hit a beam off multiple times. Proof that his beam can be redirected with a powerful blow, something his opponents can very much do. The Same Godzilla, who canonically lost his territory and his original lair to another giant monkey in the past if we take Godzilla Dominion's talk of his past rival Kong driving him out of his lair a long time ago as Pre-Supercharged Godzilla. In a fight in Melee one on one, Godzilla will beat them. Together, he has less of a chance. Two of them at the same time while two mosquitos fire beams down on him from above, and he's got way too many distractions at once to handle.
Hu huh, I know. Common sense would tell me that redirecting his head changes to aim of the beam.
Also, why are you bringing up a past failure that does nothing to benefit his opponents, don't apply to them in anyway, and happened when he was blatantly younger and less powerful? I could beat up Mike Tyson when he was 12, where's my boxing champion title?
You see my point? It makes no sense to hold a past failure against him when he wasn't as strong. In terms of his record against Kongs, we see in the oppening credits that Godzilla has faced Kongs in the past over the centuries. Notice how he's still around and those Kong mysteriously went missing...... That would explain why he was so familiar with the axe, because he's seen it and killed users of it.
And in terms of that one Kong, he later killed him. We see that Kong's damaged, disembodied skull in one of his layers.
And yet, the first time she uses her beam in the second fight with gamera, is at point blank with Gamera pinned beneath her. If it doesn't cross her mind for long periods of time like you say, then she wouldn't have attempted to beam him point blank in that instance, and instead went for a horn stab or something instead. The only reason she didn't do so beforehand, was because she was trying to get her swarm to kill Gamera for her.
She didn't try that until she'd been grappling him for a while. Yes, it didn't cross her mind for a long time.
Also, I detailed a while ago on why trying that would be a horrible idea for her. It can't end well for her in any way.
Once more, he had the Female pinned, then the Male pulled him off her yes. But in doing so, she recovered and barreled into him. Same thing will happen here with Legion and Iris. If he goes for Legion first, that gives Iris the time to get close enough to start attacking as well. If he attacks Iris first, then he chose the wrong target as that leaves Legion open to rush him from the side and start stabbing and cutting.
Yes it's easy to ignore two kids shooting you with water pistols. But it's also another thing when you are fighting another person, then start fighting the guy who pulled you off that other person and focus on them so much you forget the first person who then returns swingin. Which is what will happen here if Iris or legion are close enough for the other to retaliate during their pushing match with Godzilla.
Not if Godzilla knocks away Iris so he can focus on Legion. After all, he bulldozed Kong, he can do worse to the skinnier Iris.
And before anything is said about Legion's burst of speed. Her speed came after an extremely
I mean that Legion might get hit by the Gyaos when Godzilla is attacking. They might miss when shooting at him, or he might move in a manner that puts Legion in the line of fire.
By that same logic, the beams should scatter off Legion the same way they do to Gamera since she is covered in a silicon exoskeleton. Having taken the Mana Blast for as long as she did, those glancing beams are going to be the exact same thing that'll happen to Godzilla and to Gamera when it hits his shell. It'll bounce off.
Not excatly the same logic, butok. Anyway, it's not hard to imagine that something as big as Legion would still be in the potential line of fire.
Let's assume this quick shot of his is the killing Female MUTO charge time, which is about three seconds to charge and fire from what I counted. Now let's also go by Legion's quickest beam fire, which took about 3 to 4 seconds to fire. One of these beams does bigger explosions and pierces its enemies. The other on the other hand, pushes back and burns its enemies. Now when these two beams clash, one is going to beat back the other, and it's not going to be Godzilla's beam, for the simple fact that Legion's beam has better piercing power than Godzilla's own. We've seen how his weaker beam does against a stronger beam in the form of the Proton Scream. If Legion can sustain fire with her beam, she'll beat him back provided it hits the beam and not the ground in front of Godzilla.
>Implying that she has the aim to connect her beam to another one.
Ignoring that, her beam comes out like a cannon shot. It's not extended at all. So she's not gonna win out in a beam war.
That and Godzilla's breath over penetrated rows of buildings, it's gonna win out.
And yet he missed Ghidorah, who was on the ground. The Gyaos are in the air. They are going to be flying around that beam if he is firing at them. Plus any moment he spends firing beams at the gyaos is a wasted beam that could be spent firing at someone like Legion or Iris. The Hyper Gyaos do avoid many of Gamera's shots, but it's only when they are hit that they freeze up. Which won't matter cause the moment they do get hit by that beam, they're most likely either very injured by it or dead.
Ghidorah dodged, and Godzilla sweeps to hit actively running targets.
My point exactly. Ghidorah Dodged the beam. The Gyaos are also fairly good at dodging for a while. The only time Godzilla ever used his beam to sweep against a moving target, was when he was supercharged and fighting Kong. Every other time, he used it against a stationary opponent, who then either dodged or took the hit cause they were too slow to dodge or it was a point blank blow.
This falls apart once you compare what their dodging.
https://i.imgur.com/yYd6Jr1.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/NDOZu04.mp4
Notice how the plasma blasts are much less speedy than Godzilla's atomic breath. With Gamera, they can afford to take a second or so to avoid. With Godzilla, they would have been at least maimed, but more likely annihilated by that time.
No, they're not gonna be dodging it once he targets them.
Here you go then, a majority of Godzilla's Beams in the Monsterverse. Female MUTO gets pushed back and knocked down, and only burns completely with the beam down the throat move. Ghidorah dodged the first time, then took the supercharged one with it only pushing him back away from Godzilla. Only time it burned Ghidorah, was down the throat, with the supercharged beam. The ones in GvK are supercharged with the possible exception of the Proton Scream beam battle cause he had been using his beam extensively beforehand.
Glowy eyes don't translate to supper charge. His supercharge was a one and done power up.
But let's assume that his beam is about as strong as the one he used against the Apex Facility then shall we? Here is him using it on the Apex Facility. Head to 48 seconds in since I can't get timecoded urls to work on here.
Him sweeping his breath across the facility causes some explosions larger than him with a majority being up to his knees at most.
Now let's look at Legion using her beam against human military shall we? Head to 4 minutes and 23 seconds to see her using her beam against the military, since I can't get the forum youtube thing to work with time placed links.
One sweep of her beam, and a massive chain reaction of continuous explosions larger than her, something consistent with each use of her beam against the ground. I wonder which beam is stronger here?
So you're measuring stick is the explosions it generates? Said explosions that can be inflated by the fact that she blew up tanks full of feul?
I have a better one, the work it does. Notice how when Godzilla's atomic breath hits anything that isn't a hyper durable Kaiju, the target gets thermally deleted. Even a minor wisp of his breath touching a building deletes whatever gets touched.
Add to the fact that he can push around similarly sized opponents with it, or even throw them. Than yeah, I'd bet on his beam being stronger.
Legion's use of her beams tend to cause chain explosions with each hit against the ground, and they tend to pierce right through whatever they hit. They tear right through Gamera, whose durability is questionable, meaning they might strike and explode against Godzilla. Where Godzilla's beams are more of a kinetic force, Legion's is more of an explosive blast, the types of attacks Godzilla does not take well to if his reaction to various missiles and explosives hitting him is anything to go by. He can take the hit, but it still bothers him enough for him to recoil in pain.
Said missles aren't normal in any sense.
Anyway, I know that Legion's beam would do damage if it hit, but her aim sucks ass and the damage shouldn't exceed what King Ghidorah did with his chain lightning barrage.
As for Iris, its own beams were able to sheer right into Gamera's shell where the Gyaos's own sonic beams couldn't do so at all. A Gamera whose body has now adapted to reflecting these sonic beams back like a mirror using his hand. Iris also has the problem with using his enemies power against him, which if he does so, will only make Godzilla stronger so that there will set Iris and his team back if he does that again. Then again, Iris only uses his beams when he is pressured. Like getting buzzsawed or having a fist in his chest.
The beams that he forgets about on land? Oh, how useful.
Even if he uses them, they should inflcit damage similar to Muto Prime's claws. But that would mean that Iris just signed his own death warrant, as Godzilla would immediately drop what he's doing to rip him apart.
But, he doesn't use them anyway.¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They won't be cooperating well, but they'll be doing damage at least. Legion can be deadly and she can be fast when she wants to be, or when the CGI is with her. Iris is in the same boat here. He most likely will be fighting Godzilla if we go by the assumption he absorbed Ayana or is acting under the order of Kill. Otherwise he will immediately fly away to find Ayana. The Gyaos will be beaming down on Godzilla, and it might not do much but he's going to be annoyed by two giant flying reptiles constantly trying to attack him, and if the Male MUTO could distract him and pull him off the Female MUTO, the Gyaos would be able to do the same.
They just lack the speed and ferocity. Godzilla has the durability to whether attacks and the strength and ferocity to rip in.
Legion brings the speed and ferocity with her. Iris is just there to get a stab in whenever the battle gets close to him. Godzilla has the durability to take their attacks, but he mostly relies on the same pushing tactics Gamera and Iris use in order to knock down an enemy and then stomp them into the ground. A tactic which might not work against Legion if she digs her claws into the ground. It'll work against Iris, but Legion is also a problem in this fight. And we see that sharp enough objects can stab into Godzilla's hide with enough force, which Iris can pull if it can get a hit off while Godzilla is occupied with Legion.
You say this like she's a stab happy beast and not someone who literally just pushes for 90% of her melee encounters. No, she isn't ferocious in any context.