LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

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LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Giratina93 »

https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/godzilla_2014.html

Vs

https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/legion.htm

https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/gyaos.htm#h

https://www.tohokingdom.com/kaiju/iris.htm#i

Rules:

1. This is not charged G14/KOTM Godzilla

2. There are two Hyper Gyaos

3. No swarm for Legion.

Arena: Hawaii (G14)

I'm leaning LPG here. Even without being supercharged, he is going to decimate any of these kaiju by himself, and even together, I just don't think they have the firepower to effectively put him down, bar Legion being able to pin him underneath her and blasting him point blank, and even then we know LPG can just blast Legion off of him like he did to Ghidorah...
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by ShinGojira14 »

I’m totally leaning towards the Gamera villains. Iris is gonna be a deadly even match with Godzilla all on his own; two Hyper Gyaos added onto the mix will be even worse for the Monster King. Add the powerhouse badass that is Legion into the fray and Godzilla’s gonna get brutalized horribly.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Inferno Rodan »

What, exactly, are the villain trio going to do here? Legion is the only one that's remotely a threat, but even then not really because she's incapable of hitting anything with her only dangerous weapon. Her spear legs are nothing he hasn't handled before. Her durability is lackluster at best and Godzilla will tear her apart in short order.

As for Iris... well...



He's not going to be contributing much. And even when he's forced into fighting once Godzilla finishes with Legion, Godzilla will crumple him in a matter of moments because he barely does anything when he's on the ground. Ironically the Hyper Gyaos will last the longest and give Godzilla the most trouble because they'll stay out of reach. But the Sonic Cutters are nowhere near strong enough to deal any real damage to him, and Godzilla will only need to land a single hit with his beam to take each of them out.
Last edited by Inferno Rodan on Sat May 08, 2021 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Zasraniec »

I am giving this to Team Gamera easily. The fact this isn't even a supercharged Godzilla means Godzilla is probably going to get crushed pretty quickly. If two MUTOs could down him with no problem I am sure this team is going to demolish him. 4v1 instead of 2v1 and they all have ranged capabilities. The sheer numbers are going to overwhelm Godzilla within seconds and there are no humans to bail him out this time. Legion might even be able to solo him although I think Godzilla will do much better than Gamera would and would probably win in a melee battle against her but unfortunately this is not a 1v1 fight. The Hyper Gyaos sonic beam might do some harm to Godzilla too and we all know this Godzilla doesn't like to use his beams so they at the very least will distract him from a more serious beating from the others. MUTO Prime's sonic attack was effective against Godzilla so I don't see why the Gyaos beams won't at least do minor damage. Iris I don't think could do any critical harm but can definitely slow down and distract Godzilla by impaling him like he did to Gamera. While Iris would be crushed 1v1 against Godzilla it'll probably live long enough to suck some energy out of Godzilla and return his beam. Again, not particularly fatal for Godzilla but powerful enough to at least distract him in a match where he is seriously outnumbered. Legion probably would be the tip of the spear in this fight but since Iris seems to prefer melee it very well could be Iris instead with Legion taking a ranged role, which actually is probably even more dangerous for Godzilla because melee is Godzilla's specialty and best way to him to fight each villain.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

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Zasraniec wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 4:23 pm I am giving this to Team Gamera easily. The fact this isn't even a supercharged Godzilla means Godzilla is probably going to get crushed pretty quickly.
Wut?

None of them have the weaponry to end the fight quickly. Even with their decent weaponry, they lack competence in using them (with the exception of Hyper Gyaos).
If two MUTOs could down him with no problem I am sure this team is going to demolish him.
"If a pair of Kaiju who evolved specifically to weaken and kill him can put him on the ropes, than a group of totally different Kaiju with no such adaptations can do much better"

The Mutos are more competent than any of the Kaiju Godzilla is facing here. And that not saying much at all in regards to Iris.
4v1 instead of 2v1 and they all have ranged capabilities.
Range abilities that half the team hardly puts to use.

Iris's sonic cutters only ever come to use in the air and Legion's em beam only gets used after she engages in melee. The former isn't coming out at all and the later isn't gonna be used either on the basis of Legion dying before getting a chance to use it.

Not that the em beam would be that useful anyway. Legion has some of the worst aim in Kaiju history. She somehow managed to miss a point blank shot against Gamera and had to get in his face to secure a direct hit. Trying that against Godzilla would be suicide.
The sheer numbers are going to overwhelm Godzilla within seconds and there are no humans to bail him out this time.
The only numbers worth anything are the Hyper Gyaos. As they have weapons that Godzilla will feel and put them to good use. But they'll be shot out of the sky anyway, so with them gone the rest of the team is pretty much screwed.
Legion might even be able to solo him although I think Godzilla will do much better than Gamera would and would probably win in a melee battle against her but unfortunately this is not a 1v1 fight.
She isn't even close to being able to solo him. And "probably"? Just look at their respective performance in melee. Godzilla would tear her apart.
The Hyper Gyaos sonic beam might do some harm to Godzilla too and we all know this Godzilla doesn't like to use his beams so they at the very least will distract him from a more serious beating from the others.
He's not at all hesitant to shoot at airborne pests. He's gonna open fire on them the moment he feels anything from the blast.
MUTO Prime's sonic attack was effective against Godzilla so I don't see why the Gyaos beams won't at least do minor damage.
False equivalence, Muto Prime's attack was an electro magnetic pressure wave. Not a sonic attack like the Gyaos. Also, sure they'll do minor damage but that's it. They're at best a distraction.
Iris I don't think could do any critical harm but can definitely slow down and distract Godzilla by impaling him like he did to Gamera. While Iris would be crushed 1v1 against Godzilla it'll probably live long enough to suck some energy out of Godzilla and return his beam.
None of the strategies are viable, nor are they something that they would put to use on their own.

Iris's go to strategy in melee is to literally just push his opponent for a while with little else. He threw one slow punch but that's it. He didn't put his spears to use until he was told to. And even then he was slow to actually deploy them. And it's not like they'd stab deep, or really stab much at all. Godzilla is more durable than Gamera.
Again, not particularly fatal for Godzilla but powerful enough to at least distract him in a match where he is seriously outnumbered. Legion probably would be the tip of the spear in this fight but since Iris seems to prefer melee it very well could be Iris instead with Legion taking a ranged role, which actually is probably even more dangerous for Godzilla because melee is Godzilla's specialty and best way to him to fight each villain.
He'd dismantle any of them in melee. Hyper Gyaos is the only one who's gonna last when targeted and that's purely due to his mobility. He will be caught and promptly killed eventually.

Legion's aim is so rancid that she's not gonna accomplish anything. Other than get Godzilla's attention on her is she happens to graze him, and at which point she's done for. Iris just stands there untill engaged, so he's guaranteed to die.

Seriously, those arguing in favor of the team here are only doing so by massively inflating their competence and overestimating their weaponry. Hyper Gyaos is the only competent team member in the fight. His team mates are, quite frankly, fools compared to him.
Last edited by Godzilla2020 on Mon May 17, 2021 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Godzilla2020 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:02 am Not that the em beam would be that useful anyway. Legion has some of the worst aim in Kaiju history. She somehow managed to miss a point blank shot against Gamera and had to get in his face to secure a direct hit. Trying that against Godzilla would be suicide.
Everyone always says she missed a point blank shot, but are we sure that they weren’t deliberately shot that way? The first time she used it, it shot right though Gamera’s shoulder and that shot was not right up in his face. The second one stopped him from getting up faster by exploding right next to him to knock him aside, and the third one ignited all the buildings around him in order to disorient and keep him down, which it did, almost long enough for the flower to fire off into space. When fighting the military, she hit all the tanks with her beam. A much smaller target than the giant bipedal tortoise, but also one that she could just fire in a line with. During the second fight, she missed the first time Point Blank because Gamera was smart enough to fly while trapped beneath her, pushing her upwards and off him, forcing the beam to fire elsewhere. Second time I have no excuse for. That shot was shitty, but she did just lose most of her shield arms so pain might have been a factor there. The beam will definitely hurt if it hits Godzilla.

As for the Red Whips, I don’t think those are meant to kill monsters, in a conventional beam blows you up or a stabby stabby way, but more of a death by a thousand cuts sort of deal. They pierce fine, but they are very thin, they cut very well but don’t cut deep. If anything, they are more of use to keep someone away from you by threat of constant stabbing and slashing through your defenses, cause a Paper Cut seems hurts a lot longer than a normal cut. At least mentally since it leaves your nerve endings open. Against Godzilla? They would probably cut him fine, but he could probably power through them.
Godzilla2020 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:02 am She isn't even close to being able to solo him. And "probably"? Just look at their respective performance in melee. Godzilla would tear her apart.
Godzilla would tear her apart? He probably could, if he doesn't get cut open with how sharp her lower limbs are. Her horn was sharp enough to cut Gamera by brushing against him, and sure his skin durability could be questionable in that movie, but her legs were also sharp enough to just tear right through his shell, and are long enough to where they can slash from the back of her body to the front. Meaning if she and Godzilla are grappling, she could very much stab him in the side with her back legs.

It could go both ways. Legion is one fast moving monster when she needs to be. Her ability to burrow very fast and quickly back the hell up when her egg sac is about to be slashed open is proof of that. If she burrows beneath Godzilla, she could very well ambush him like she did to Gamera and knock him on his ass. Plus, Legion is tall, and when she gets up all the way on her legs to slam someone into the ground, that’s going to hurt. She could probably pin Godzilla to the ground like that if he charges towards her front, and unlike Gamera, won’t have jets to launch his way out from under her and his own beam takes a couple seconds to charge. And we’ve seen his beam get interrupted from firing by Missiles, so a Sonic beam from the Gyaos would most likely serve the same purpose here. Plus she was constantly beating Gamera back in close combat, which she could most likely do the same to Godzilla.

And before you state, “But Godzilla could just tear her shield arms right off easily!”, think about why Gamera didn’t do the same? It took Missiles firing from her side where her shield wouldn’t affect them to strike them. Gamera was right up front the entire time they fought, so why didn’t he simply tear the arms off? The thing is, those arms are right to the side of her giant, very sharp, horn. They are on a wide frill like part of her body, just far enough for monsters to not be able to reach while dealing with her horn, and can very much still hit whoever is in her face with their tips. If they try going for the side arms, that leaves them open to her sharp horn to smack them aside.
Godzilla2020 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:02 am
MUTO Prime's sonic attack was effective against Godzilla so I don't see why the Gyaos beams won't at least do minor damage.
False equivalence, Muto Prime's attack was an electro magnetic pressure wave. Not a sonic attack like the Gyaos. Also, sure they'll do minor damage but that's it. They're at best a distraction.
Where did you get the information that MUTO Prime’s Sonic scream was an Electro Magnetic Pressure Wave. Nowhere does it state such information. Every source I checked always say it uses Sonic vibrations to make a concussive blast, tuned to the harmonic frequency to shatter Godzilla’s spines and create seismic instability. As for Gyaos’s Sonic Ray? It probably won’t have the same affect here as unlike Prime, it’s not specifically tuned to shatter Godzilla’s spines, but it will annoy him if they hit the right spots.

I’d probably give this one to Team Gamera with heavy casualties. Especially since this is Pre-Supercharged Godzilla, meaning he’s going to be taking a couple seconds to charge up his beams, and they won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the one we see him use to push Ghidorah back in the Boston fight. Legion will be doing the most damage here, Iris I’m not so sure about unless he’s in the sky firing off beams, but he does have really long tendrils to use. The Gyaos only serve as distractions, but their aerial mobility should make them good distractions.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pm Everyone always says she missed a point blank shot, but are we sure that they weren’t deliberately shot that way? The first time she used it, it shot right though Gamera’s shoulder and that shot was not right up in his face. The second one stopped him from getting up faster by exploding right next to him to knock him aside, and the third one ignited all the buildings around him in order to disorient and keep him down, which it did, almost long enough for the flower to fire off into space. When fighting the military, she hit all the tanks with her beam. A much smaller target than the giant bipedal tortoise, but also one that she could just fire in a line with. During the second fight, she missed the first time Point Blank because Gamera was smart enough to fly while trapped beneath her, pushing her upwards and off him, forcing the beam to fire elsewhere. Second time I have no excuse for. That shot was shitty, but she did just lose most of her shield arms so pain might have been a factor there. The beam will definitely hurt if it hits Godzilla.
Y'know, the hilarious part is this sort of roundabout stupidity is perfectly in line with Heisei Gamera Trilogy kaiju "tactical" behavior. But unfortunately that's not what's going on with Legion's lack of accuracy. She can't hit anything with her EM Blast because she literally blinds herself in the process of charging and firing it. Think about it. It's a whole thing in the movie that the Legion see electromagnetic waves. Where does the EM Blast form when she's charging it up? Directly in front of her eyes. That's also why she had perfect aim with the Laser Whips: she didn't have the equivalent of a floodlight shining in her face when she was using them.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Inferno Rodan wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:56 pm Y'know, the hilarious part is this sort of roundabout stupidity is perfectly in line with Heisei Gamera Trilogy kaiju "tactical" behavior. But unfortunately that's not what's going on with Legion's lack of accuracy. She can't hit anything with her EM Blast because she literally blinds herself in the process of charging and firing it. Think about it. It's a whole thing in the movie that the Legion see electromagnetic waves. Where does the EM Blast form when she's charging it up? Directly in front of her eyes. That's also why she had perfect aim with the Laser Whips: she didn't have the equivalent of a floodlight shining in her face when she was using them.
And yet, she still managed to destroy 50% of the Tank Battalion firing upon her with that floodlight in her eyes, in the first shot, at night. Even with the lack of accuracy, the chain of explosions it causes afterwards will most likely disorientate or knock Godzilla over.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Jermobooka »

Wait...so this isn’t post Mothra-power up Goji or even KOTM Goji?

Legendary is so screwed here lol
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:05 pm And yet, she still managed to destroy 50% of the Tank Battalion firing upon her with that floodlight in her eyes, in the first shot, at night.
Okay? She was attacking a mass of extremely frail things spread out over a wide area on the ground. The only way she could have not hit them is if she somehow managed to miss the ground entirely, which would be impressively bad even by her standards.
Even with the lack of accuracy, the chain of explosions it causes afterwards will most likely disorientate or knock Godzilla over.
It took 3 shots in rapid succession to even accomplish this against Gamera, who is leagues less durable than LP Godzilla. He'll be in her face tearing into her before that happens.

Jermobooka wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:29 pm Wait...so this isn’t post Mothra-power up Goji or even KOTM Goji?

Legendary is so screwed here lol
KOTM before he gets revived by the nuke counts too.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

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[quote]Wut?

None of them have the weaponry to end the fight quickly. Even with their decent weaponry, they lack competence in using them (with the exception of Hyper Gyaos)[/quote]
I think Nagoda did a good rebuttal that captures my thoughts on this so there is no need to add anything else here.
[quote]"If a pair of Kaiju who evolved specifically to weaken and kill him can put him on the ropes, than a group of totally different Kaiju with no such adaptations can do much better"

The Mutos are more competent than any of the Kaiju Godzilla is facing here. And that not saying much at all in regards to Iris.[/quote]
I fundamentally disagree. The MUTOs are only a threat to the planet because of their sheer numbers. This also applies to Gyaos but not Legion and Iris. The female MUTO was distracted from finishing off a far bigger threat to her aka Godzilla because her nest was destroyed. That is far worse tactically then anything the Gamera villains have done. Did Legion do this when the swarm was destroyed? Of course not. She stayed on task. Not only that but if we are taking EU into account here then Godzilla lost to a giant ape with no special abilities. That is pretty humiliating and really shows how overblown Monsterverse Godzilla really is by some fans. Especially by this specific incarnation, 2014. Obviously Godzilla has gotten more powerful over time.
[quote]Range abilities that half the team hardly puts to use.

Iris's sonic cutters only ever come to use in the air and Legion's em beam only gets used after she engages in melee. The former isn't coming out at all and the later isn't gonna be used either on the basis of Legion dying before getting a chance to use it.

Not that the em beam would be that useful anyway. Legion has some of the worst aim in Kaiju history. She somehow managed to miss a point blank shot against Gamera and had to get in his face to secure a direct hit. Trying that against Godzilla would be suicide.[/quote]
Nagoda had a good response but I would like to add that Legion has taken for more punishment than the MUTOs. Even Iris has. The Gyaos not so much. I agree Iris isn't much of a beamer, but it seems to prefer using it while airborne. All three of these villains can fly to give them a tactical edge against Godzilla here.
[quote]The only numbers worth anything are the Hyper Gyaos. As they have weapons that Godzilla will feel and put them to good use. But they'll be shot out of the sky anyway, so with them gone the rest of the team is pretty much screwed.[/quote]
If Legion and Iris fail to keep Godzilla's attention the Gyaos will be vulnerable to beam shots. There is just one problem with that. 2014's beams sucks. Even if I give him the full benefit of the doubt and say the lack of MUTO EMP gives him power like it did in KotM fine let's just say that happens. 2014 doesn't beam much. It is just not how he fights. If we were talking GvK Godzilla then yeah. Not only is that Godzilla more powered up and stronger than 2014, but he seems much more capable of beam spamming but this is not the case here.
[quote]She isn't even close to being able to solo him. And "probably"? Just look at their respective performance in melee. Godzilla would tear her apart.[/quote]
I did concede that in a pure melee fight Godzilla would probably "win" although I don't see how he actually has the firepower to harm Legion to the point where she could die. Gamera's mana blast was far more powerful than anything 2014 Godzilla dished out.
[quote]He's not at all hesitant to shoot at airborne pests. He's gonna open fire on them the moment he feels anything from the blast.[/quote]
Then why didn't he do that with the male MUTO? Could it be because he can't?
[quote]False equivalence, Muto Prime's attack was an electro magnetic pressure wave. Not a sonic attack like the Gyaos. Also, sure they'll do minor damage but that's it. They're at best a distraction[/quote]
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[quote]None of the strategies are viable, nor are they something that they would put to use on their own.

Iris's go to strategy in melee is to literally just push his opponent for a while with little else. He threw one slow punch but that's it. He didn't put his spears to use until he was told to. And even then he was slow to actually deploy them. And it's not like they'd stab deep, or really stab much at all. Godzilla is more durable than Gamera.[/quote]
You aren't entirely wrong here except that it is a very viable strategy. The two MUTOs stabbed Godzilla and injured him with ease. While Godzilla is obviously more durable than Gamera and I even conceded he would probably win by a landslide in 1v1 this is not 1v1. Legion and Gyaos are very fierce fighters and will use whatever time Iris distracting Godzilla gives them. There isn't going to be a military attack that destroys a MUTO nest to save Godzilla this time.
[quote]He'd dismantle any of them in melee. Hyper Gyaos is the only one who's gonna last when targeted and that's purely due to his mobility. He will be caught and promptly killed eventually.

Legion's aim is so rancid that she's not gonna accomplish anything. Other than get Godzilla's attention on her is she happens to graze him, and at which point she's done for. Iris just stands there untill engaged, so he's guaranteed to die.

Seriously, those arguing in favor of the team here are only doing so by massively inflating their competence and overestimating their weaponry. Hyper Gyaos is the only competent team member in the fight. His team mates are, quite frankly, fools compared to him.[/quote]
I think I made it clear that I think Godzilla would "win" in a 1v1 melee fight against all of these opponents. I'll repeat though that 2014 Godzilla isn't very beam intensive and this puts him at a severe disadvantage against any opponents that can avoid his melee power such as the Gyaos. I agree with you on Iris being lame as a tactician. It just seems to do whatever it is told. However I disagree in you saying the same of Legion. Legion's first battle with Gamera showed she was capable of planning ahead of time with a strategy. Delay Gamera at all costs to let the Flower detonate. That's exactly what she did. When her objective was complete she retreated. If this were post power up Godzilla I think the argument for Godzilla winning this fight is much stronger. As for 2014 though not so much.

Edit: Can someone tell me how to quote properly on this subforum?
Last edited by Zasraniec on Mon May 17, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

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Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmEveryone always says she missed a point blank shot, but are we sure that they weren’t deliberately shot that way? The first time she used it, it shot right though Gamera’s shoulder and that shot was not right up in his face. The second one stopped him from getting up faster by exploding right next to him to knock him aside, and the third one ignited all the buildings around him in order to disorient and keep him down, which it did, almost long enough for the flower to fire off into space. When fighting the military, she hit all the tanks with her beam. A much smaller target than the giant bipedal tortoise, but also one that she could just fire in a line with. During the second fight, she missed the first time Point Blank because Gamera was smart enough to fly while trapped beneath her, pushing her upwards and off him, forcing the beam to fire elsewhere. Second time I have no excuse for. That shot was shitty, but she did just lose most of her shield arms so pain might have been a factor there. The beam will definitely hurt if it hits Godzilla.
This was already addressed by Inferno Rodan.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmAs for the Red Whips, I don’t think those are meant to kill monsters, in a conventional beam blows you up or a stabby stabby way, but more of a death by a thousand cuts sort of deal. They pierce fine, but they are very thin, they cut very well but don’t cut deep. If anything, they are more of use to keep someone away from you by threat of constant stabbing and slashing through your defenses, cause a Paper Cut seems hurts a lot longer than a normal cut. At least mentally since it leaves your nerve endings open. Against Godzilla? They would probably cut him fine, but he could probably power through them.
If Legion is even put into the position where the red whips can come out than she'd already be dead. Gamera, for some reason just stood there when she fell over and layed unconscious. Godzilla wouldn't do that, he's gonna stomp her face into a pulp if she just feel over in front of him and layed there, while still being very much alive.

Also, the whips failed the get past Gamera's skull. It's likely that they won't penetrate everything.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmGodzilla would tear her apart? He probably could, if he doesn't get cut open with how sharp her lower limbs are. Her horn was sharp enough to cut Gamera by brushing against him, and sure his skin durability could be questionable in that movie, but her legs were also sharp enough to just tear right through his shell, and are long enough to where they can slash from the back of her body to the front. Meaning if she and Godzilla are grappling, she could very much stab him in the side with her back legs.
Again, Godzilla's scales are much more durable than Gamera's. He's not gonna take any damage from a horn that had to strike multiple times to achieve any penetration on a much less durable foe.

That and her legs get put to use after a lengthy shoving match with Gamera. Godzilla is gonna go for her throat from the start. She'll be dead long before she can even think to use her legs. Even if she fought out of character and put them to use, so what? She needed plenty of leverage for them to stab Gamera and a clear shot. Leverage that Godzilla isn't gonna give her, nor is he gonna be just standing there. And again, there's the durability difference, there not going into Godzilla nearly as well as they did Gamera. And they did nothing to even suggest that they could gut him, and she never even tries to gut foes with them.

Your description of her has her fighting massively out of character while boosting her stats beyond what they canonically are.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmIt could go both ways. Legion is one fast moving monster when she needs to be. Her ability to burrow very fast and quickly back the hell up when her egg sac is about to be slashed open is proof of that.
That was one burst of speed compared to consistently slow movements throughout the movie. It's unlikely that she would live long enough here to even put that to use. Especially since Godzilla is gonna be grabbing and mauling her, not striking.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmIf she burrows beneath Godzilla, she could very well ambush him like she did to Gamera and knock him on his ass.
She never burrows mid combat. Even if she tried an ambush, her legs only knocked Gamera out of the air because he ran right into them. Godzilla wouldn't just let them strike him. He's either gonna grab and maul one or just yank her out of the ground.,
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmPlus, Legion is tall, and when she gets up all the way on her legs to slam someone into the ground, that’s going to hurt. She could probably pin Godzilla to the ground like that if he charges towards her front, and unlike Gamera, won’t have jets to launch his way out from under her and his own beam takes a couple seconds to charge. And we’ve seen his beam get interrupted from firing by Missiles, so a Sonic beam from the Gyaos would most likely serve the same purpose here. Plus she was constantly beating Gamera back in close combat, which she could most likely do the same to Godzilla.
Attempting to pin Godzilla is by and far one of the worst things Legion can attempt. There's literally no way that could end well for her.

Just leaning up would be a bad idea. Godzilla is quick to bulldoze opponents, and with her in that position he could do so easily. Just imaging how bad it would be if Legion found her self laying on her back, she;d be easy prey for him from there.

Even if he, for some reason doesn't introduce her face to the ground the second she leans up, actually pinning him would be damn near impossible for her. Godzilla is much more stable than Gamera, with his thick tail as a counter balance. Trying to fall on him isn't putting him on his back. She'll just be leaning her body on his face, which would be a monumentally dumb idea.

Hell, he could just bend over. Doing so would subject Legion to the Kaiju equivalent of flopping on to knives.

Even if, against all odds she some how pins him. Godzilla doesn't knock her over before she can fall on him and his stability doesn't come into play, so what? Legendary Godzilla is quick the go for his atomic breath when he's pinned on his back, like damn near instantly. Legion's viable to lose her face trying that.

So there is literally no way that attempting to pin Godzilla can go well for her. Not that she would live long enough to try it, as Godzilla is gonna maul her the second he gets his claws on her.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmAnd before you state, “But Godzilla could just tear her shield arms right off easily!”, think about why Gamera didn’t do the same? It took Missiles firing from her side where her shield wouldn’t affect them to strike them. Gamera was right up front the entire time they fought, so why didn’t he simply tear the arms off? The thing is, those arms are right to the side of her giant, very sharp, horn. They are on a wide frill like part of her body, just far enough for monsters to not be able to reach while dealing with her horn, and can very much still hit whoever is in her face with their tips. If they try going for the side arms, that leaves them open to her sharp horn to smack them aside.
I never even considered her shield arms in this anyway. But now that you mention it, he could if he wanted to. He's far faster and more ferocious than Gamera is in melee and his scales are too tough for her horn to be a threat. So she really can't stop him from doing so.

Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmWhere did you get the information that MUTO Prime’s Sonic scream was an Electro Magnetic Pressure Wave. Nowhere does it state such information. Every source I checked always say it uses Sonic vibrations to make a concussive blast, tuned to the harmonic frequency to shatter Godzilla’s spines and create seismic instability. As for Gyaos’s Sonic Ray? It probably won’t have the same affect here as unlike Prime, it’s not specifically tuned to shatter Godzilla’s spines, but it will annoy him if they hit the right spots.
Muto Prime's body electrifies before he fires the blast. Add to the fact that Mutos use emp, this is obviously an evolved version of that. However, you got me on it having sonic power components. But feat wise it performed better than the sonic cutter anyway.
Nagoda wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:02 pmI’d probably give this one to Team Gamera with heavy casualties. Especially since this is Pre-Supercharged Godzilla, meaning he’s going to be taking a couple seconds to charge up his beams, and they won’t be anywhere near as powerful as the one we see him use to push Ghidorah back in the Boston fight. Legion will be doing the most damage here, Iris I’m not so sure about unless he’s in the sky firing off beams, but he does have really long tendrils to use. The Gyaos only serve as distractions, but their aerial mobility should make them good distractions.
The Gyaos are really the only worth while opponents here. They're fast, agile, dodge attacks, and fire back. Godzilla is gonna hit and thus kill them eventually, but they'll be a nuisance to him.

Legion just isn't gonna do well, all she did against Gamera for minutes on end was push on him. The first thing Godzilla did when she made contact with the Female Muto was bite into her throat. It's blatantly obvous that he's gonna make short work of her in melee.

Iris, again does nothing unless he's directly engaged. Unlike Gamera, Godzilla is gonna maul him immediately. Godzilla take this with moderate difficulty, which almost exclusively comes from the Gyaos.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Zasraniec »

Gonna try this without the quote function so bear with me.

"If Legion is even put into the position where the red whips can come out than she'd already be dead. Gamera, for some reason just stood there when she fell over and layed unconscious. Godzilla wouldn't do that, he's gonna stomp her face into a pulp if she just feel over in front of him and layed there, while still being very much alive.

Also, the whips failed the get past Gamera's skull. It's likely that they won't penetrate everything."

So what makes you think that Godzilla can kill Legion through melee combat? Given what we have seen from both the minions and the queen Legion they are very different in biology and seem pretty durable. Now I don't think this makes Legion more durable than Godzilla but I do think it gives her a run for his money.

"Again, Godzilla's scales are much more durable than Gamera's. He's not gonna take any damage from a horn that had to strike multiple times to achieve any penetration on a much less durable foe.

That and her legs get put to use after a lengthy shoving match with Gamera. Godzilla is gonna go for her throat from the start. She'll be dead long before she can even think to use her legs. Even if she fought out of character and put them to use, so what? She needed plenty of leverage for them to stab Gamera and a clear shot. Leverage that Godzilla isn't gonna give her, nor is he gonna be just standing there. And again, there's the durability difference, there not going into Godzilla nearly as well as they did Gamera. And they did nothing to even suggest that they could gut him, and she never even tries to gut foes with them.

Your description of her has her fighting massively out of character while boosting her stats beyond what they canonically are."

Yes I think it is safe to say Godzilla is more durable than Gamera. To be frank I think you are having Godzilla fight uncanonically better. This is not a 1v1 match. Gyaos and Iris aren't going to just sit there. If they aren't going to do anything then they might as well not be in this fight. Godzilla handled the female MUTO fine 1v1 but that's just what is was. 1v1. Not only that Legion is easily the most durable on her team. I think she can hold her own in terms of durability even if Godzilla outclasses her in melee. What's he doing to do, tear out her non existent throat? Gut her? Oh yeah she has gas for blood and seems to lack most conventional organs. She's nothing like the MUTOs or anything Godzilla fought. That doesn't mean she is better in every way of course but I think you are selling her a bit short by using standards of Earth creatures like the MUTOs.

"That was one burst of speed compared to consistently slow movements throughout the movie. It's unlikely that she would live long enough here to even put that to use. Especially since Godzilla is gonna be grabbing and mauling her, not striking."

I guess this part it is pretty much all debate. For me I saw it as Legion toying with Gamera most of the time. Only really showing real initiative to do harm when called for. That's just the feel I was getting since she fought Gamera pretty differently while delaying him as opposed to the second time. I also don't think Legion is going to be melee fodder. In terms of matching blows with Godzilla to be exact. I mean tanking the blows. Especially since this is a team match. Godzilla only needs to be distracted for a few seconds for Gyaos or Iris to cook up something. Seconds matter here. I really don't think Godzilla can kill or incapacitate Legion in melee. At least not quickly enough to eliminate her with assistance from her teammates at the very least.

"If Legion is even put into the position where the red whips can come out than she'd already be dead. Gamera, for some reason just stood there when she fell over and layed unconscious. Godzilla wouldn't do that, he's gonna stomp her face into a pulp if she just feel over in front of him and layed there, while still being very much alive.

Also, the whips failed the get past Gamera's skull. It's likely that they won't penetrate everything."

I already mentioned why I think Godzilla's melee won't be as lethal against Legion, especially in this scenario so I wanna focus on the whips. Yeah Godzilla can probably tank the whips a bit longer than Gamera. However he got exhausted after his MUTO fight and collapsed for hours. So while I don't think they will really be fatal they don't need to be. Legion definitely seemed to be sadistic with her whips too. First brandishing them before actually using them against Gamera. I think she is smart enough to pick up that Godzilla is more durable and use them more seriously. Again I don't think they are fatal for Godzilla if used for the time they were against Gamera. However if they are used for much longer combined with Iris and Gyaos assisting then things are different. They were able to pierce Gamera's shell which rival's Godzilla's hide in durability. Not quite there I think but close. So they will at the very least slow down Godzilla and be painful. After all the MUTOs were able to pierce his hide with no problem. I am betting those whips are more vicious than MUTO arms.

"She never burrows mid combat. Even if she tried an ambush, her legs only knocked Gamera out of the air because he ran right into them. Godzilla wouldn't just let them strike him. He's either gonna grab and maul one or just yank her out of the ground."

Another point where there isn't much to go on other than headcanon. I again think it is because of Legion's personality. Why try to ambush your opponent when you are winning the fight and seem to be enjoying the winning? She was able to burrow on fairly short notice when the flower was about to detonate so I wouldn't rule it out. Since this was a team fight with Godzilla outnumbered I never really factored Legion burrowing anyway and just assumed she would behave exactly as if she were fighting Gamera for fairness sake. I think you are overselling Godzilla's digging ability. I don't think he is gonna drill through the ground in seconds and yank a kaiju out of the ground. I'd be more curious if she would use burrowing against an opponent that ambushes like Kong or something. I think yes but I guess we'll never know for sure.

"Attempting to pin Godzilla is by and far one of the worst things Legion can attempt. There's literally no way that could end well for her.

Just leaning up would be a bad idea. Godzilla is quick to bulldoze opponents, and with her in that position he could do so easily. Just imaging how bad it would be if Legion found her self laying on her back, she;d be easy prey for him from there.

Even if he, for some reason doesn't introduce her face to the ground the second she leans up, actually pinning him would be damn near impossible for her. Godzilla is much more stable than Gamera, with his thick tail as a counter balance. Trying to fall on him isn't putting him on his back. She'll just be leaning her body on his face, which would be a monumentally dumb idea.

Hell, he could just bend over. Doing so would subject Legion to the Kaiju equivalent of flopping on to knives.

Even if, against all odds she some how pins him. Godzilla doesn't knock her over before she can fall on him and his stability doesn't come into play, so what? Legendary Godzilla is quick the go for his atomic breath when he's pinned on his back, like damn near instantly. Legion's viable to lose her face trying that.

So there is literally no way that attempting to pin Godzilla can go well for her. Not that she would live long enough to try it, as Godzilla is gonna maul her the second he gets his claws on her."

I don't disagree with much here. In a 1v1 fight Godzilla would have the advantage the whole time in melee and would probably be the one pinning Legion rather than the opposite. Although if Godzilla is spending this much time wrestling Legion he will get attacked by the teammates and overwhelmed. The only thing I really don't think would happen is the atomic breath. Not only is it pretty weak at this stage in Godzilla's career you have to at least see it is nothing like the Mana Beam. If Legion could withstand seconds of that then Godzilla's beam won't do squat except probably irritate her or just leave himself open to teammate attacks. There isn't really anything Godzilla can do to either of Team Gamera that doesn't leave him open from the others. Strong melee but weak beam and durability since this is 2014 Godzilla. I think only the Gyaos could get killed my melee. Iris and Legion will be at a disadvantage in melee but I don't think they are going to just die in seconds like you think. The Gyaos also like to fly around so I don't think they will hold still and let Godzilla maul them.

"I never even considered her shield arms in this anyway. But now that you mention it, he could if he wanted to. He's far faster and more ferocious than Gamera is in melee and his scales are too tough for her horn to be a threat. So she really can't stop him from doing so."

If you ask me I think Legion's piercing arms would be more deadly than the MUTOs that pierced Godzilla and drew blood. I say this because the MUTOs arms don't look too imposing and they would use gravity to make the blow crush Godzilla more. Something I don't think Legion needs to do because she didn't have to with Gamera's shell.

"The Gyaos are really the only worth while opponents here. They're fast, agile, dodge attacks, and fire back. Godzilla is gonna hit and thus kill them eventually, but they'll be a nuisance to him.

Legion just isn't gonna do well, all she did against Gamera for minutes on end was push on him. The first thing Godzilla did when she made contact with the Female Muto was bite into her throat. It's blatantly obvous that he's gonna make short work of her in melee.

Iris, again does nothing unless he's directly engaged. Unlike Gamera, Godzilla is gonna maul him immediately. Godzilla take this with moderate difficulty, which almost exclusively comes from the Gyaos."

The Gyaos are the only opponent I think Godzilla has somewhat of a chance to take. I think they might get cocky and charge Godzilla at some point assuming Godzilla doesn't die by then. Then Godzilla would probably give them a similar treatment to the male MUTO. Although I might be giving Godzilla to much credit because he is going to be against four total opponents. His stunt with the male MUTO required time to set up and perform. Time I don't think he has. If the female MUTO was fighting at that moment there's no way he'd be able to perform his fatality. If Iris isn't going to do anything than I doubt the OP would have bothered adding him. Besides Monsterverse Godzilla is very aggressive. How do you know he won't just attack Iris anyway? If you think he is aggressive enough to yank Legion out from underground then he surely is going to at least provoke Iris and see him as some kind of threat to nature. Even if 4 kaiju weren't wailing on Godzilla at the same time it will take more than biting Legion's throat to take her down. Especially since she seems to lack a throat as we know it.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Godzilla2020 »

Holy fuck am I late, between college, work, this forum not being that good at alerting me,
and getting into another big debatehttps://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/godzilla-2014-vs-slattern-pacific-rim.936459/


I just lost track of stuff. Anyway, I'm back and I'll just address some points.

And if you want to continue, to help out with the quote function just type in [Q U O T E] to begin, just without the spaces. I put those because it registers as a quote without them. To end just retype that with / between the Q and the [.
Example
Also, before I go further, the op specifies 2014 Godzilla when he's energized. The events of aftershock and what we see at the beginning of KOTM is all acceptable for power showings. And just about everything is workable for his behavior.
Zasraniec wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:59 pm Gonna try this without the quote function so bear with me.
That's fine.
So what makes you think that Godzilla can kill Legion through melee combat? Given what we have seen from both the minions and the queen Legion they are very different in biology and seem pretty durable. Now I don't think this makes Legion more durable than Godzilla but I do think it gives her a run for his money.
Her go too strategy is to simply push her opponent up close. Gamera was rather capable of causing severe damage whenever he did more than simply push back.

Godzilla is both physically stronger and much more ferocious than Gamera. If Gammy can do so much to Legion up close (deeply rip into her chest and rip off her horn), than a much more deadly melee fighter is gonna do much worse in less time. Doing much worse than established dismemberment is gonna be either fatal or leave her maimed beyond fighting condition.

Yes I think it is safe to say Godzilla is more durable than Gamera. To be frank I think you are having Godzilla fight uncanonically better. This is not a 1v1 match. Gyaos and Iris aren't going to just sit there.
I'm really not, he's just much better up close than any other Kaiju here.

You're right that Gyaos is not gonna sit there, they love to use their beams(said beam ain't gonna do much though), but Iris is infamous for his crippling lack of aggression. He well known for just standing there and menacingly staring at his opponent without actually doing anything.

Even if he decides to engage in melee, so what? He's painfully slow on foot, much more so than I expected him to be. And his go to melee fighting tactic is to push. He'd occasionally throw a slow as hell punch but that comes after extended pushing. Seriously, Godzilla could maul Legion in melee and pretty much ignore Iris' pushing and slow punches, as they'd achieve all of nothing except getting Godzilla's attention on him and getting him mauled too. Even if he brings out his spears, they're not likely to do much of anything. Godzilla is much more durable than Gamera, he's not gonna get shanked.
If they aren't going to do anything then they might as well not be in this fight. Godzilla handled the female MUTO fine 1v1 but that's just what is was. 1v1. Not only that Legion is easily the most durable on her team. I think she can hold her own in terms of durability even if Godzilla outclasses her in melee.
All of her showings of durability in melee where her opponent legitimately fought back showed her getting maimed. Godzilla's gonna maim her even worse when he get's his claws on her, for reasons stated above.
What's he doing to do, tear out her non existent throat?
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"Non existent"
Gut her?
Gamera came dangerously close to doing so. Of course a physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju can do so.
Oh yeah she has gas for blood and seems to lack most conventional organs.
You do realize that gas blood would shoot out of her much quicker than liquid blood would, right? Literally any muscle deep injury should cause fatal "bleeding" on that basis.
She's nothing like the MUTOs or anything Godzilla fought. That doesn't mean she is better in every way of course but I think you are selling her a bit short by using standards of Earth creatures like the MUTOs.
The Mutos evolved to be great melee fighters with savage weaponry and great strength. They actually put them to use. Legion hardly does that at all.
I guess this part it is pretty much all debate. For me I saw it as Legion toying with Gamera most of the time.
Why would she be toying with an enemy who could very well blow her face off? Gamera wounded her grievously twice.

Even if that was the case, than how would she fight when not toying?
Only really showing real initiative to do harm when called for. That's just the feel I was getting since she fought Gamera pretty differently while delaying him as opposed to the second time. I also don't think Legion is going to be melee fodder. In terms of matching blows with Godzilla to be exact. I mean tanking the blows. Especially since this is a team match. Godzilla only needs to be distracted for a few seconds for Gyaos or Iris to cook up something. Seconds matter here. I really don't think Godzilla can kill or incapacitate Legion in melee. At least not quickly enough to eliminate her with assistance from her teammates at the very least.
She's not gonna hold up against Godzilla's assault for long at all.

And neither Gyaos or Iris are the thinking type. Gyaos just beam spams and Iris stands there and does nothing most of the time.

I already mentioned why I think Godzilla's melee won't be as lethal against Legion, especially in this scenario so I wanna focus on the whips. Yeah Godzilla can probably tank the whips a bit longer than Gamera. However he got exhausted after his MUTO fight and collapsed for hours. So while I don't think they will really be fatal they don't need to be. Legion definitely seemed to be sadistic with her whips too. First brandishing them before actually using them against Gamera. I think she is smart enough to pick up that Godzilla is more durable and use them more seriously. Again I don't think they are fatal for Godzilla if used for the time they were against Gamera. However if they are used for much longer combined with Iris and Gyaos assisting then things are different. They were able to pierce Gamera's shell which rival's Godzilla's hide in durability. Not quite there I think but close. So they will at the very least slow down Godzilla and be painful. After all the MUTOs were able to pierce his hide with no problem. I am betting those whips are more vicious than MUTO arms.
I was talking about the conditions needed for the whips to come out at all.

That requires that her horn be removed, and when that happens she just lays comatose for a while. If that happens than Godzilla is gonna stomp her face into a pulp.

And if she suddenly gets up? Godzilla isn't just gonna stand there like Gamera did, he's either gonna run in and rip into her or just shoot at her, after all she didn't start lashing the whips in an instant.
Another point where there isn't much to go on other than headcanon. I again think it is because of Legion's personality. Why try to ambush your opponent when you are winning the fight and seem to be enjoying the winning? She was able to burrow on fairly short notice when the flower was about to detonate so I wouldn't rule it out. Since this was a team fight with Godzilla outnumbered I never really factored Legion burrowing anyway and just assumed she would behave exactly as if she were fighting Gamera for fairness sake.
I would, she knows her own flower. And she didn't want to be near the thing when it exploded.

Meanwhile she never, at any point shows any inclination to burrow mid combat.
I think you are overselling Godzilla's digging ability. I don't think he is gonna drill through the ground in seconds and yank a kaiju out of the ground. I'd be more curious if she would use burrowing against an opponent that ambushes like Kong or something. I think yes but I guess we'll never know for sure.
?

I never said that he would dig after her. I said that if she tried an underground leg strike than he would grab her leg, after it breaches the surface, and yank her out.

I don't disagree with much here. In a 1v1 fight Godzilla would have the advantage the whole time in melee and would probably be the one pinning Legion rather than the opposite. Although if Godzilla is spending this much time wrestling Legion he will get attacked by the teammates and overwhelmed.
Gyaos is the only other team mate with the aggression to attack. And his form of attack isn't gonna do much of anything anyway, Godzilla can afford to ignore him in favor of dealing with Legion.
The only thing I really don't think would happen is the atomic breath. Not only is it pretty weak at this stage in Godzilla's career you have to at least see it is nothing like the Mana Beam. If Legion could withstand seconds of that then Godzilla's beam won't do squat except probably irritate her or just leave himself open to teammate attacks.
The mana beam was absolute overkill in every sense of the word. Just because I would get annihilated by a giant ww1 flamethrower doesn't mean that I would face tank an m2 flamethrower.
He's gonna burn her face off, when full on energy he can make liberal use of his atomic breath.
There isn't really anything Godzilla can do to either of Team Gamera that doesn't leave him open from the others.
The one that he's gonna focus on isn't gonna last long, one of the team mates is just gonna stand there unless attacked, and Gyaos isn't gonna do much of anything on his own.
Strong melee but weak beam and durability since this is 2014 Godzilla. I think only the Gyaos could get killed my melee. Iris and Legion will be at a disadvantage in melee but I don't think they are going to just die in seconds like you think. The Gyaos also like to fly around so I don't think they will hold still and let Godzilla maul them.
Already addressed the beam point, and the Gyaos can be shot down. They seem to almost freeze up when nailed with a powerful attack mid air.

If you ask me I think Legion's piercing arms would be more deadly than the MUTOs that pierced Godzilla and drew blood. I say this because the MUTOs arms don't look too imposing and they would use gravity to make the blow crush Godzilla more. Something I don't think Legion needs to do because she didn't have to with Gamera's shell.
She stabbed his underside in what appeared to be a joint between shell plates. It's not enough to prove that they can get through Godzilla's scales with any form of efficiency.
The Gyaos are the only opponent I think Godzilla has somewhat of a chance to take. I think they might get cocky and charge Godzilla at some point assuming Godzilla doesn't die by then.
None of them have good enough weaponry for this to happen.
Then Godzilla would probably give them a similar treatment to the male MUTO. Although I might be giving Godzilla to much credit because he is going to be against four total opponents.
By the time he gets to them the "big" threat would be dead. Until then they're ignorable.
His stunt with the male MUTO required time to set up and perform. Time I don't think he has. If the female MUTO was fighting at that moment there's no way he'd be able to perform his fatality. If Iris isn't going to do anything than I doubt the OP would have bothered adding him.
That's just just how he is. He does nothing until engaged directly.
Besides Monsterverse Godzilla is very aggressive. How do you know he won't just attack Iris anyway? If you think he is aggressive enough to yank Legion out from underground then he surely is going to at least provoke Iris and see him as some kind of threat to nature. Even if 4 kaiju weren't wailing on Godzilla at the same time it will take more than biting Legion's throat to take her down. Especially since she seems to lack a throat as we know it.
"Wailing"? One of them would be standing there, the other one ignores it's only good physical weapon(against opponents in it's weight class) and the others will be doing, at best, minor chip damage.

They're not gonn be co operating very well. Legion just firing risks damaging her own team.
Last edited by Godzilla2020 on Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Godzilla2020 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:17 pm I'm really not, he's just much better up close than any other Kaiju here.

You're right that Gyaos is not gonna sit there, they love to use their beams(said beam ain't gonna do much though), but Iris is infamous for his crippling lack of aggression. He well known for just standing there and menacingly staring at his opponent without actually doing anything.

Even if he decides to engage in melee, so what? He's painfully slow on foot, much more so than I expected him to be. And his go to melee fighting tactic is to push. He'd occasionally throw a slow as hell punch but that comes after extended pushing. Seriously, Godzilla could maul Legion in melee and pretty much ignore Iris' pushing and slow punches, as they'd achieve all of nothing except getting Godzilla's attention on him and getting him mauled too. Even if he brings out his spears, they're not likely to do much of anything. Godzilla is much more durable than Gamera, he's not gonna get shanked.

Ah yes of course. All he does is either stand there menacingly or push his opponent with a slow punch after the pushing. It not like there was a spear through the gut to help with the major pushing. It’s also not like he doesn’t have those spears out at all times on both ends of his arms or anything like that. It’s also not like he was trying to bond with his human priestess while having a giant fist in his gut, while simultaneously pinning his opponent to a wall and draining his blood. Nope, just there, staring menacingly into his enemies eyes with a fist in his gut. And if Godzilla is tearing into Legion, it’s not like he has a weak spot on the side of his neck for breathing, open for a hit by say a giant spear arm as he grapples with another opponent he’s trying to finish off. Not like that has ever been taken advantage of before right?

Also, Iris dominated the fight with Gamera. His only goal was to fuse with Ayana, Gamera was just in his way. How did he deal with that? By stabbing Gamera, the only opposition in his way trying to push him back, in the chest and proceeding to push his way to Ayana with Gamera on a skewer, knocking down Gamera long enough to start the fusion process. And what villain doesn’t take their time, gloating over their pinned enemy as they kill them slowly. When you are at an advantage and at the height of your purpose in life, you tend to want to savor the moment. Although I will admit it was stupid of him to use fire on Gamera, and he will probably do the same mistake here if he does manage to pierce and drain blood from Godzilla.

Added in 17 minutes 33 seconds:
Also, a slow punch won’t do anything to Godzilla? So what’s this then, a slightly faster not so slow punch? (Go to 2:39 in the clip, not sure if the timeline thing will work. It’s the boat punch scene.)

I’m pretty sure getting hit by a spear fist would hurt a lot more than a normal fist.
Last edited by Nagoda on Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Godzilla2020 »

Nagoda wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 11:41 pm
Godzilla2020 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:17 pm I'm really not, he's just much better up close than any other Kaiju here.

You're right that Gyaos is not gonna sit there, they love to use their beams(said beam ain't gonna do much though), but Iris is infamous for his crippling lack of aggression. He well known for just standing there and menacingly staring at his opponent without actually doing anything.

Even if he decides to engage in melee, so what? He's painfully slow on foot, much more so than I expected him to be. And his go to melee fighting tactic is to push. He'd occasionally throw a slow as hell punch but that comes after extended pushing. Seriously, Godzilla could maul Legion in melee and pretty much ignore Iris' pushing and slow punches, as they'd achieve all of nothing except getting Godzilla's attention on him and getting him mauled too. Even if he brings out his spears, they're not likely to do much of anything. Godzilla is much more durable than Gamera, he's not gonna get shanked.
Ah yes of course. All he does is either stand there menacingly or push his opponent with a slow punch after the pushing.
You do realize that your own evidence proves me right, do you?

It portrays the exact behavior that I described, the same behavior that he pretty much gets memed for around these boards.

Gamera lands dramatically and roars while shaking a bit. Iris literally just stands there and stares at him. Gamera roars again, Iris finally responds vocally. Despite Gamera coming dangerously close to burning him to ash, Iris just stands and stares at him when he lands, when he's got a clear shot to shoot back with his sonic cutters.

Iris only physically responds with violence when Gamera initiates a fist fight.

This is literally the exact behavior that I have been describing him with from the beginning of this debate. And it's the behavior that he canonically displays, stand and do nothing until engaged.
It not like there was a spear through the gut to help with the major pushing. It’s also not like he doesn’t have those spears out at all times on both ends of his arms or anything like that.
Most of the time his spears are retracted. Only coming out when he extends them. Even then, a punch to the face did no visible damage to Gamera. They'll do nothing to Godzilla.
It’s also not like he was trying to bond with his human priestess while having a giant fist in his gut, while simultaneously pinning his opponent to a wall and draining his blood. Nope, just there, staring menacingly into his enemies eyes with a fist in his gut.
He kinda was. Sure he was draining blood, but he could have easily whipped out the sonic cutters then and there, or stick his other spear through his opponent's throat. But he didn't, because he chose to stare at his pinned opponent, take 50 years to charge a slow as hell attack, and neglected the plethora of other ways in which he could have won the fight.

You keep saying these things while ignoring context to make a point.

Iris is fist fighting Gamera? Let's ignore the fact that Gamera initiated that fight by rushing in first and Iris only attacked in retaliation. None of which contradicts my point of "Iris is non aggressive as hell when not directly engaged".

Iris has his opponent pinned against a wall and is draining his blood? Lets ignore the fact that Iris could kill his opponent in a million different ways but instead chose to stand and stare at his pinned enemy. Opting to use the most inefficient, risky, easily backfirable(if that's not a word than I'll make it one) method possible.

He's just not a competent fighter. That much is obvious.
And if Godzilla is tearing into Legion, it’s not like he has a weak spot on the side of his neck for breathing, open for a hit by say a giant spear arm as he grapples with another opponent he’s trying to finish off. Not like that has ever been taken advantage of before right?
And Iris would know about this weakspot? How?

Are you seriously trying to tell me that the guy who ignored his most lethal weapons for 90% of his combat showings, and who never stabs necks even when that could instantly end fights would somehow know enough about his opponent's anatomy to go straight for a weakspot?

With his sheer incompetence, even if he did know, he probably wouldn't stab at it. This is the same guy who had his opponent at his mercy for most of their time together and somehow still managed to get himself blown to bits.
Also, Iris dominated the fight with Gamera. His only goal was to fuse with Ayana, Gamera was just in his way. How did he deal with that? By stabbing Gamera, the only opposition in his way trying to push him back, in the chest and proceeding to push his way to Ayana with Gamera on a skewer, knocking down Gamera long enough to start the fusion process.
You'd think that having a weapon that ripped through his enemy's best defenses would warrant him using it more. But he's simply too stupid.

You know, killing an enemy who's getting in the way of his ultimate goal would be smart, but it's not even remotely what he did.
And what villain doesn’t take their time, gloating over their pinned enemy as they kill them slowly. When you are at an advantage and at the height of your purpose in life, you tend to want to savor the moment. Although I will admit it was stupid of him to use fire on Gamera, and he will probably do the same mistake here if he does manage to pierce and drain blood from Godzilla.
A villain with a functioning brain? Gamera was in no way crippled, he had plenty of fire power left to spare.

If Iris had disabled Gamera's internal plasma furnace and aimed the shots at his neck/head than he would get a pass for gloating. But as we see it, Gamera was in every position to blow his face off, that alone should have set off an alarm in Iris' brain that gloating and taking his time is too risky to be worth it.

But as said again, he's just too incompetent.

Added in 17 minutes 33 seconds:
Also, a slow punch won’t do anything to Godzilla? So what’s this then, a slightly faster not so slow punch? (Go to 2:39 in the clip, not sure if the timeline thing will work. It’s the boat punch scene.)

I’m pretty sure getting hit by a spear fist would hurt a lot more than a normal fist.
To answer your first question, run the mouse along the video's length, right click, and the option to copy the video's url at the selected time will be available.

And in terms of the match, I never said that a slow punch would be worthless on the basis of it being slow. Kong just has the strength for Godzilla to feel the punch.

A spear on the hand won't matter if the spear cant penetrate and if the arm powering the spear isn't strong enough to cause a flinch reaction.
Last edited by Godzilla2020 on Mon Jun 21, 2021 10:58 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Zasraniec »

Been busy lately and almost forgot about this. Now without the prohibition thing I can quote properly now! Anyway I doubt we are going to agree on the outcome and that's cool and all. I am just going to point out why I vote the way I vote here.
Also, before I go further, the op specifies 2014 Godzilla when he's energized. The events of aftershock and what we see at the beginning of KOTM is all acceptable for power showings. And just about everything is workable for his behavior.
Yeah but those feats are not impressive at all. All Godzilla did is get whipped around in both of those instances.
Her go too strategy is to simply push her opponent up close. Gamera was rather capable of causing severe damage whenever he did more than simply push back.

Godzilla is both physically stronger and much more ferocious than Gamera. If Gammy can do so much to Legion up close (deeply rip into her chest and rip off her horn), than a much more deadly melee fighter is gonna do much worse in less time. Doing much worse than established dismemberment is gonna be either fatal or leave her maimed beyond fighting condition.
I don't think you are wrong here in thinking Godzilla will thrash Legion better than Gamera. I think Godzilla is gonna do much better, but he doesn't do good against multiple opponents because Godzilla at this stage is relatively weak compared to other Godzillas. I know not everyone agrees with that but hopefully as I explain stuff a bit more some will see why I truly think that. I do not however agree with you in thinking that means Godzilla auto wins against Legion 1v1. He'll definitely do much better and has a shot but this isn't even 1v1. There is power in numbers. Three weaklings could beat one strongling for example.
I'm really not, he's just much better up close than any other Kaiju here.

You're right that Gyaos is not gonna sit there, they love to use their beams(said beam ain't gonna do much though), but Iris is infamous for his crippling lack of aggression. He well known for just standing there and menacingly staring at his opponent without actually doing anything.

Even if he decides to engage in melee, so what? He's painfully slow on foot, much more so than I expected him to be. And his go to melee fighting tactic is to push. He'd occasionally throw a slow as hell punch but that comes after extended pushing. Seriously, Godzilla could maul Legion in melee and pretty much ignore Iris' pushing and slow punches, as they'd achieve all of nothing except getting Godzilla's attention on him and getting him mauled too. Even if he brings out his spears, they're not likely to do much of anything. Godzilla is much more durable than Gamera, he's not gonna get shanked.
Godzilla is pretty slow too at this point. If Godzilla is so durable how were the MUTOs able to make him bleed so easily? Before you say it is because they evolved to fight him, Ghidorah spanked him pretty bad in Antarctica as well. While I do feel these opponents are better at melee than Legion, I feel that you are overselling Godzilla in melee. Especially at this stage in his development. Heck even when powered up in GvK Godzilla still gets wounded by a giant monkey with an axe. Godzilla is far from invulnerable.
All of her showings of durability in melee where her opponent legitimately fought back showed her getting maimed. Godzilla's gonna maim her even worse when he get's his claws on her, for reasons stated above
In thinking Gamera was not legit fighting back at any point I strongly argue against. Gamera was very determined to stop Legion and this was practically spelled out for us with the mana beam being used despite the consequences of using it. Legion was considered to be that much of a threat to the world. That's pretty telling. I am not disagreeing with you that Godzilla will do significantly better than Gamera in a melee brawl with her, but against such numbers I doubt Godzilla can claim victory here.
"Non existent"
I still don't see one. Not as we know it anyway. What I mean is I doubt Legion breathes and eats through her uhh I don't know what to call it. Head?
Gamera came dangerously close to doing so. Of course a physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju can do so.
Huh? When? Gamera only got two good hits on the creature that actually seemed to give it pause. Dismembering her horn and obliterating her with a super weapon.
You do realize that gas blood would shoot out of her much quicker than liquid blood would, right? Literally any muscle deep injury should cause fatal "bleeding" on that basis.
If that is the case, why didn't the soldier Legion bleed out and withstand multiple gunshot leaks? Plus I think it is safe to assume Mother Legion is way tougher than her kin so she can probably last way longer.
The Mutos evolved to be great melee fighters with savage weaponry and great strength. They actually put them to use. Legion hardly does that at all.
I agree with your first statement. However the second I do not. As I said before I think it is safe to say Legion was toying with Gamera in the second fight as there wasn't really a goal in defending the Flower like last time so she felt free to do as she pleased. Even then she was obviously winning almost the entire time. Combined with all of these impressive feats and having Iris and two gyaos Godzilla has a very slim chance here if at all.
Why would she be toying with an enemy who could very well blow her face off? Gamera wounded her grievously twice.

Even if that was the case, than how would she fight when not toying?
Oh so we do agree it was only twice then. However I think I should contest the first time in saying it was "grievously." While dismembering Legion certainly was injured the fact she got back up after a few seconds more powerful than ever makes me question that is was life threatening. As I just said Legion was winning both fights almost the entire time except for two brief instances. The horn and the super weapon.
She's not gonna hold up against Godzilla's assault for long at all.

And neither Gyaos or Iris are the thinking type. Gyaos just beam spams and Iris stands there and does nothing most of the time.
I think she could. However for the sake of argument I will just use your argument here. Let's say Godzilla definitely beats Legion 1v1. Ok great, but he would need to focus his energy and time on Legion. He has to focus on somebody. Iris and Gyaos are going to be backing Legion up here. As I said before numbers matter a lot. We see it all the time in the wild. How a group of smaller animals can take on one larger animal simply because of the numbers. They might be weaker on their own but numbers matter a lot. Gyaos is very aggressive and will probably be attacking Godzilla nonstop. Iris is more defensive but given how aggressive Godzilla is, which you do agree with me on how aggressive he is, is going to attack Iris and provoke him to attack back very quickly.
I was talking about the conditions needed for the whips to come out at all.

That requires that her horn be removed, and when that happens she just lays comatose for a while. If that happens than Godzilla is gonna stomp her face into a pulp.

And if she suddenly gets up? Godzilla isn't just gonna stand there like Gamera did, he's either gonna run in and rip into her or just shoot at her, after all she didn't start lashing the whips in an instant.
In a 1v1 fight your argument certainly holds water. Legion was only out for a few seconds and I don't think Godzilla could kill her so easily with physical damage but again I will say things will go your way for the sake of argument. The numbers come into play here. Iris and especially Gyaos aren't going to just stop what they are doing and let Godzilla finish the job. Oh no. They're going to attack him!
I would, she knows her own flower. And she didn't want to be near the thing when it exploded.

Meanwhile she never, at any point shows any inclination to burrow mid combat.
Exactly! That shows intelligence and tactics from Legion. Iris has shown some intelligence too. So I think between those two they are more than smart enough to chain attack Godzilla. The Gyaos maybe not but they are so aggressive that really isn't an issue here. Either way Godzilla is under attack from all sides. As for the burrowing yeah. She never really showed any desire to, but why should she if she was winning her fights so decisively?
?

I never said that he would dig after her. I said that if she tried an underground leg strike than he would grab her leg, after it breaches the surface, and yank her out.
Seeing how Godzilla fought Ghidorah and the MUTOs I doubt he has the reflexes to pull that off.
Gyaos is the only other team mate with the aggression to attack. And his form of attack isn't gonna do much of anything anyway, Godzilla can afford to ignore him in favor of dealing with Legion.
Gyaos is certainly as aggressive as Legion but I do think his beams will at the very least do minor damage to Godzilla. If MUTO Prime devastated Godzilla with a sonic attack I think Gyaos will get some results. Now I know Prime was specifically designed to counter Godzilla so the frequency was just right, but it shows sonic attacks are viable against Godzilla. Even if the damage is minor it can at least distract Godzilla or contribute a sort of death of a thousand cuts.
The mana beam was absolute overkill in every sense of the word. Just because I would get annihilated by a giant ww1 flamethrower doesn't mean that I would face tank an m2 flamethrower.
He's gonna burn her face off, when full on energy he can make liberal use of his atomic breath.
I contest this. If it was overkill why did Legion withstand it for several seconds? Not only that but we see throughout the battles of Gamera throwing everything he has at Legion only to pull this ability which was clearly a last resort. Despite the risks Gamera knew it was needed and the only way he had to to stop Legion.
The one that he's gonna focus on isn't gonna last long, one of the team mates is just gonna stand there unless attacked, and Gyaos isn't gonna do much of anything on his own.
As seen with the male MUTO quick and agile flying opponents can be effective against Godzilla by outflanking him. Only by outsmarting the male MUTO did he kill it. So I don't think either opponent of Godzilla will die as quickly as you think if it was 1v1. The Gyaos if Godzilla could pin them, but they probably won't let him. Especially since there are not one but TWO! Add Iris and Legion to that and I doubt any Legendary Godzilla except for Burning of course could survive.
Already addressed the beam point, and the Gyaos can be shot down. They seem to almost freeze up when nailed with a powerful attack mid air.
Godzilla's beam isn't powerful though and takes forever to charge. Even if I give Godzilla the full benefit of the doubt and say the weakness of the beam was strictly the MUTO EMP, he still has to charge it while Iris and Legion are probably up close wailing on him. It just isn't likely from my view here.
She stabbed his underside in what appeared to be a joint between shell plates. It's not enough to prove that they can get through Godzilla's scales with any form of efficiency
I would say Legion is much stronger than Gamera. Especially when considering Legion wasn't evolved specifically to combat Gamera like the MUTOs were to Godzilla. I feel he could pierce Godzilla's hide with ease if the physically weaker MUTOs can.
None of them have good enough weaponry for this to happen
Legion's ranged weapons do. Maybe Iris' blast as well. The Gyaos I think will be more of a distracting beam rather than causing severe damage though. However in a fight like this seconds matters and two Gyaos blasting Godzilla could cost him dearly.
By the time he gets to them the "big" threat would be dead. Until then they're ignorable.
I think I explained on my end why I don't think that would happen. I just don't see Iris or Legion dying within seconds here. I explained why I feel that is the case with the feats I have seen.
By the time he gets to them the "big" threat would be dead. Until then they're ignorable.
However you said yourself Godzilla is very aggressive which he is. Not only that but since you think he is going to ninja kung fu them all within seconds then that means Godzilla will attack Iris very quickly and provoke him.
"Wailing"? One of them would be standing there, the other one ignores it's only good physical weapon(against opponents in it's weight class) and the others will be doing, at best, minor chip damage.

They're not gonn be co operating very well. Legion just firing risks damaging her own team
I stand by that. Legion and Gyaos are very aggressive. Iris becomes aggressive when attacked which I think we agree Godzilla is going to do. Why wouldn't he? Iris was an artificially created creature and that is just the type of thing to see Monsterverse Godzilla off. Anyway I know I am not changing anybody's mind here but hopefully that gives some perspective. I think the #1 selling point here is the numbers. Even against Godzilla lesser kaiju could win by numbers alone.

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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Godzilla2020 »

Damn, why is this site so bad at alerting me of these things? Sorry for late replies, I just didn't know as I wasn't notified.

As for the arguments.
Zasraniec wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:41 pm Been busy lately and almost forgot about this. Now without the prohibition thing I can quote properly now! Anyway I doubt we are going to agree on the outcome and that's cool and all. I am just going to point out why I vote the way I vote here.
That's cool, we're all here to make points after all.
Also, before I go further, the op specifies 2014 Godzilla when he's energized. The events of aftershock and what we see at the beginning of KOTM is all acceptable for power showings. And just about everything is workable for his behavior.
Yeah but those feats are not impressive at all. All Godzilla did is get whipped around in both of those instances.
Considering how Godzilla bull rushes and ragdolls Muto Prime, those feats are much more impressive than any strength feat from anyone in the team. They definately prove he can and will overpower whoever he gets his claws on.
Her go too strategy is to simply push her opponent up close. Gamera was rather capable of causing severe damage whenever he did more than simply push back.

Godzilla is both physically stronger and much more ferocious than Gamera. If Gammy can do so much to Legion up close (deeply rip into her chest and rip off her horn), than a much more deadly melee fighter is gonna do much worse in less time. Doing much worse than established dismemberment is gonna be either fatal or leave her maimed beyond fighting condition.
I don't think you are wrong here in thinking Godzilla will thrash Legion better than Gamera. I think Godzilla is gonna do much better, but he doesn't do good against multiple opponents because Godzilla at this stage is relatively weak compared to other Godzillas. I know not everyone agrees with that but hopefully as I explain stuff a bit more some will see why I truly think that. I do not however agree with you in thinking that means Godzilla auto wins against Legion 1v1. He'll definitely do much better and has a shot but this isn't even 1v1. There is power in numbers. Three weaklings could beat one strongling for example.
Legion's melee capability is miniscule compared to Monterverse Kaiju. She'd get desecrated in short order.
I'm really not, he's just much better up close than any other Kaiju here.

You're right that Gyaos is not gonna sit there, they love to use their beams(said beam ain't gonna do much though), but Iris is infamous for his crippling lack of aggression. He well known for just standing there and menacingly staring at his opponent without actually doing anything.

Even if he decides to engage in melee, so what? He's painfully slow on foot, much more so than I expected him to be. And his go to melee fighting tactic is to push. He'd occasionally throw a slow as hell punch but that comes after extended pushing. Seriously, Godzilla could maul Legion in melee and pretty much ignore Iris' pushing and slow punches, as they'd achieve all of nothing except getting Godzilla's attention on him and getting him mauled too. Even if he brings out his spears, they're not likely to do much of anything. Godzilla is much more durable than Gamera, he's not gonna get shanked.
Godzilla is pretty slow too at this point. If Godzilla is so durable how were the MUTOs able to make him bleed so easily? Before you say it is because they evolved to fight him, Ghidorah spanked him pretty bad in Antarctica as well. While I do feel these opponents are better at melee than Legion, I feel that you are overselling Godzilla in melee. Especially at this stage in his development. Heck even when powered up in GvK Godzilla still gets wounded by a giant monkey with an axe. Godzilla is far from invulnerable.
Godzilla was notably dominating the melee fight against Ghidorah in the artic, that and he can actually run. Something that neither Iris or Legion seem to do, he's definitely faster than both of them on the ground.
All of her showings of durability in melee where her opponent legitimately fought back showed her getting maimed. Godzilla's gonna maim her even worse when he get's his claws on her, for reasons stated above
In thinking Gamera was not legit fighting back at any point I strongly argue against. Gamera was very determined to stop Legion and this was practically spelled out for us with the mana beam being used despite the consequences of using it. Legion was considered to be that much of a threat to the world. That's pretty telling. I am not disagreeing with you that Godzilla will do significantly better than Gamera in a melee brawl with her, but against such numbers I doubt Godzilla can claim victory here.
Most of the time Gamera was simply pushing, when I say fight back I mean when he actually attacked. Like his elbow spike slash and ripping off her horn. Those were the severe injuries that Gamera left, injuries that Godzilla can exceed rather easily.

Godzilla is both stronger and more ferocious than Gamera, he's gonna keep up the mauling the whole time. Legion isn't fighting an opponent whos just gonna be pushing her, she's gonna be getting mauled by a melee savage.
"Non existent"
I still don't see one. Not as we know it anyway. What I mean is I doubt Legion breathes and eats through her uhh I don't know what to call it. Head?
Her neck is still right there.

I don't know if she even eats. She might but I wouldn't be able to tell ya.
Gamera came dangerously close to doing so. Of course a physically stronger, more ferocious Kaiju can do so.
Huh? When? Gamera only got two good hits on the creature that actually seemed to give it pause. Dismembering her horn and obliterating her with a super weapon.
Explained above.
You do realize that gas blood would shoot out of her much quicker than liquid blood would, right? Literally any muscle deep injury should cause fatal "bleeding" on that basis.
If that is the case, why didn't the soldier Legion bleed out and withstand multiple gunshot leaks? Plus I think it is safe to assume Mother Legion is way tougher than her kin so she can probably last way longer.
I recall them bleeding out when they were shot in unarmored parts.
The Mutos evolved to be great melee fighters with savage weaponry and great strength. They actually put them to use. Legion hardly does that at all.
I agree with your first statement. However the second I do not. As I said before I think it is safe to say Legion was toying with Gamera in the second fight as there wasn't really a goal in defending the Flower like last time so she felt free to do as she pleased. Even then she was obviously winning almost the entire time. Combined with all of these impressive feats and having Iris and two gyaos Godzilla has a very slim chance here if at all.
Here's the thing though, you claiming that she was toying with him seems like a passive admittal that her performance was over all unimpressive so you want to use that as an excuse to afford her extra competence in the name of "she's not toying around anymore".

First of all, you're gonna have to prove that she was legitimately toying rather than just make the claim. I mean solid proof, like how Godzilla was toying with Kong, that has proof from the director and with Godzilla intentionally whiffing would be kill shots.

You need some really good evidence to prove that she fights better when not toying, and to prove that she was doing that to begin with.
Why would she be toying with an enemy who could very well blow her face off? Gamera wounded her grievously twice.

Even if that was the case, than how would she fight when not toying?
Oh so we do agree it was only twice then. However I think I should contest the first time in saying it was "grievously." While dismembering Legion certainly was injured the fact she got back up after a few seconds more powerful than ever makes me question that is was life threatening. As I just said Legion was winning both fights almost the entire time except for two brief instances. The horn and the super weapon.
I was referring to the slash and the horn rip.
She's not gonna hold up against Godzilla's assault for long at all.

And neither Gyaos or Iris are the thinking type. Gyaos just beam spams and Iris stands there and does nothing most of the time.
I think she could.
Proof?

When ever Gamera legitimately attacked he ripped into her. Godzilla is gonna be attacking non stop, she's not gonna hold out long at all. What Gamera did to her in melee is proof enough.
However for the sake of argument I will just use your argument here. Let's say Godzilla definitely beats Legion 1v1. Ok great, but he would need to focus his energy and time on Legion. He has to focus on somebody. Iris and Gyaos are going to be backing Legion up here. As I said before numbers matter a lot. We see it all the time in the wild. How a group of smaller animals can take on one larger animal simply because of the numbers. They might be weaker on their own but numbers matter a lot. Gyaos is very aggressive and will probably be attacking Godzilla nonstop. Iris is more defensive but given how aggressive Godzilla is, which you do agree with me on how aggressive he is, is going to attack Iris and provoke him to attack back very quickly.
Sure numbers matter, but only when the members are worthwhile.

The Gyaos aren't gonna be doing much of anything in terms of damage. Sure they're gonna attack, but they lack the damage output to stop Godzilla from killing Legion. By the time he's done, he'll be fine, they can't do much to him.

Iris on the other hand canonically lacks aggression to a crippling degree. Seriously, anyone who claims that Iris is gonna jump into the fray is portraying a different character entirely. Lets go over what happened before Iris threw hands(spears?) with Gamera.

First Gamera bull rushes Iris in the sky. Biting into his neck and then attempts to saw him in half. Iris sits there and lets this happen for well over 10 seconds before he decides to fight back.

So already, despite being directly attacked, Iris retaliates with the timing of an old dementia patient.

So when Iris gets Gamera off him, what next? Surely he'd retaliate again now that he has a wide open opportunity to rush in and at least incapacitate his foe right? No, he flies off and it's only due to the military throwing Gamera off course that he gets away. If he was legitimately aggressive and smart, he'd have offed what amounts to a determined threat to his life. But he didn't, he's too passive and too stupid.

What happens next? Iris lands, Gamera dive bombs with fire and fury, and Iris deflects the would be kill shots. What happens when Gamera lands, rather slowly and dramatically? Iris sits there and watches. He watches as the creature who just took a bite into his neck, attempted to saw him in two, followed him despite getting stabbed into, and now just tried to incinerate him slowly makes his landing.

At this point Iris should have just fired his sonic cutters at the throat and been done with it. This monster pursuing him wants him dead and will not take no for an answer, no matter how painful. It should have occurred to Iris to take his big and obvious shot. What did he do?

Silently stare as his would be(only due to his incompetence) grim reaper aggressively roars at him. He only responds verbally when he's roared at for a second time. He should have taken the shot at this point, anyone with half a functioning brain would have, but no. He instead lets Gamera walk up to him and start throwing hands. Even then Iris doesn't physically respond until Gamera strikes first.

Do you see what I'm talking about when I say that Iris is cripplingly passive? He does the equivalent of an armed hiker letting a mountain lion who he's previously shot in self defense twice waltz up to him after a third violent encounter. What kind of idiot would let this happen? Iris, Iris would let such events happen, and he'd sit and watch the whole time.

In this matchup, Iris is that guy who'd be just at home in r/donthelpjustfilm. He'd happily just sit there and watch as Legion gets mauled and Gyaos get shot out of the sky, and he wouldn't give a single shit until Godzilla bull rushed him. And even then his response is gonna be less than savage, it certainly wasn't that much against Gamera.
I was talking about the conditions needed for the whips to come out at all.

That requires that her horn be removed, and when that happens she just lays comatose for a while. If that happens than Godzilla is gonna stomp her face into a pulp.

And if she suddenly gets up? Godzilla isn't just gonna stand there like Gamera did, he's either gonna run in and rip into her or just shoot at her, after all she didn't start lashing the whips in an instant.
In a 1v1 fight your argument certainly holds water. Legion was only out for a few seconds and I don't think Godzilla could kill her so easily with physical damage but again I will say things will go your way for the sake of argument. The numbers come into play here. Iris and especially Gyaos aren't going to just stop what they are doing and let Godzilla finish the job. Oh no. They're going to attack him!
Gyaos isn't gonna be inflicting much damage if any. Even if they distract Godzilla long enough for Legion's whips to com out, so what? It took her at least a minute between the time she got up and the time that she fired to whips at Gamera. Godzilla's gonna immediately go back to ignoring the small none threats in favor of taking out the big one. Legion's gonna get fried at this point. And that's assuming that Godzilla doesn't double tap to make sure that she's thoroughly dead, and btw it's within his character to make sure that an opponent who he wants dead is actually dead. This scenario is unlikely, but still gonna go favorably for Godzilla.
I would, she knows her own flower. And she didn't want to be near the thing when it exploded.

Meanwhile she never, at any point shows any inclination to burrow mid combat.
Exactly! That shows intelligence and tactics from Legion. Iris has shown some intelligence too. So I think between those two they are more than smart enough to chain attack Godzilla. The Gyaos maybe not but they are so aggressive that really isn't an issue here. Either way Godzilla is under attack from all sides. As for the burrowing yeah. She never really showed any desire to, but why should she if she was winning her fights so decisively?
It doesn't take much intelligence to stay away from something that she knows is essentially a massive bomb. Certainly not enough to prove that her fighting style is going to massively improve here compared to how it was in the movie.
?

I never said that he would dig after her. I said that if she tried an underground leg strike than he would grab her leg, after it breaches the surface, and yank her out.
Seeing how Godzilla fought Ghidorah and the MUTOs I doubt he has the reflexes to pull that off.
Considering that Godzilla instantly followed up a claw strike with a tail slam, he definitely has the reflexes.

It's as simple as reaching out and grabbing something that, while flailing, is not moving around. He's definitely stronger than it. It's not gonna be difficult in any sense.
Gyaos is the only other team mate with the aggression to attack. And his form of attack isn't gonna do much of anything anyway, Godzilla can afford to ignore him in favor of dealing with Legion.
Gyaos is certainly as aggressive as Legion but I do think his beams will at the very least do minor damage to Godzilla. If MUTO Prime devastated Godzilla with a sonic attack I think Gyaos will get some results. Now I know Prime was specifically designed to counter Godzilla so the frequency was just right, but it shows sonic attacks are viable against Godzilla. Even if the damage is minor it can at least distract Godzilla or contribute a sort of death of a thousand cuts.
I already said that the beams can do minor damage, but that's it. They're ignorable, and Legion could suffer a case of friendly fire.
The mana beam was absolute overkill in every sense of the word. Just because I would get annihilated by a giant ww1 flamethrower doesn't mean that I would face tank an m2 flamethrower.
He's gonna burn her face off, when full on energy he can make liberal use of his atomic breath.
I contest this. If it was overkill why did Legion withstand it for several seconds? Not only that but we see throughout the battles of Gamera throwing everything he has at Legion only to pull this ability which was clearly a last resort. Despite the risks Gamera knew it was needed and the only way he had to to stop Legion.
I'll put it like this.

According to your logic, because it would take a few seconds for this absolute monster of a flamethrower to destroy me:


Than I can tank this much smaller flamethrower with no injury:



See what I mean? Lasting a few seconds but still getting deleted doesn't prove much. Especially when Godzilla's atomic breath is absurdly hot.
I go into further detail here:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... t-77440771

Honestly, I don't think any of the Kaiju her are gonna take a blast from Godzilla's atomic breath. It's gonna spell doom for whoever it hits. Especially since Godzilla's slow charge time only occurs when he's all tired, like in 2014. It's not gonna happen here, he's actually quite fast with it outside of that.

If Godzilla and Legion where about to fire their respective beam weapons, Godzilla's gonna beat her on the draw.
The one that he's gonna focus on isn't gonna last long, one of the team mates is just gonna stand there unless attacked, and Gyaos isn't gonna do much of anything on his own.
As seen with the male MUTO quick and agile flying opponents can be effective against Godzilla by outflanking him. Only by outsmarting the male MUTO did he kill it. So I don't think either opponent of Godzilla will die as quickly as you think if it was 1v1. The Gyaos if Godzilla could pin them, but they probably won't let him. Especially since there are not one but TWO! Add Iris and Legion to that and I doubt any Legendary Godzilla except for Burning of course could survive.
Again, this only applies to him when he's tired. He's not tired here, he can freely blast his atomic breath at airborne nuisances.
Already addressed the beam point, and the Gyaos can be shot down. They seem to almost freeze up when nailed with a powerful attack mid air.
Godzilla's beam isn't powerful though and takes forever to charge. Even if I give Godzilla the full benefit of the doubt and say the weakness of the beam was strictly the MUTO EMP, he still has to charge it while Iris and Legion are probably up close wailing on him. It just isn't likely from my view here.
Already addressed this. Godzilla's beam is arguably the strongest one on the field.
She stabbed his underside in what appeared to be a joint between shell plates. It's not enough to prove that they can get through Godzilla's scales with any form of efficiency
I would say Legion is much stronger than Gamera. Especially when considering Legion wasn't evolved specifically to combat Gamera like the MUTOs were to Godzilla. I feel he could pierce Godzilla's hide with ease if the physically weaker MUTOs can.
You have no proof that the Mutos are weaker. If anything, they're the stronger ones, as they have the strength feats of throwing around Godzilla. None of the other Kaiju here have strength feats up to par with that.

Gonna have to provide evidence rather than falsely label the Mutos as weaker.
None of them have good enough weaponry for this to happen
Legion's ranged weapons do.
Legion can't hit shit with her beam. It's also not gonna be as effective on Godzilla as it was against Gamera.
Maybe Iris' blast as well.
The blast that he forgets about the moment his feet touch the ground?

They aren't coming into play either.
The Gyaos I think will be more of a distracting beam rather than causing severe damage though. However in a fight like this seconds matters and two Gyaos blasting Godzilla could cost him dearly.
They don't have to feats to prove that they would be all that effective against Godzilla.
By the time he gets to them the "big" threat would be dead. Until then they're ignorable.
I think I explained on my end why I don't think that would happen. I just don't see Iris or Legion dying within seconds here. I explained why I feel that is the case with the feats I have seen.
The "feats" of them getting maimed by a physically less powerful Kaiju? If anything, that proves how badly they would get wrecked by Godzilla.
By the time he gets to them the "big" threat would be dead. Until then they're ignorable.
However you said yourself Godzilla is very aggressive which he is. Not only that but since you think he is going to ninja kung fu them all within seconds then that means Godzilla will attack Iris very quickly and provoke him.
I never even mentioned martial arts. What?

I'll put it like this, Godzilla is aggressive as all hell. He rushes into melee with savagery and happily rips in. Legion and Iris primarily just push their enemies in melee. Not a threatening melee strategy, especially when Iris isn't gonna be doing anything until engaged. I explained the Iris thing above.

The only guys on the Deiei team who fight with anywhere close to even half the savagery Godzilla brings are the Gyaos, and they're not strong enough to try their luck against Godzilla up close. And they don't seem to like melee anyway.
"Wailing"? One of them would be standing there, the other one ignores it's only good physical weapon(against opponents in it's weight class) and the others will be doing, at best, minor chip damage.

They're not gonn be co operating very well. Legion just firing risks damaging her own team
I stand by that. Legion and Gyaos are very aggressive. Iris becomes aggressive when attacked which I think we agree Godzilla is going to do. Why wouldn't he? Iris was an artificially created creature and that is just the type of thing to see Monsterverse Godzilla off. Anyway I know I am not changing anybody's mind here but hopefully that gives some perspective. I think the #1 selling point here is the numbers. Even against Godzilla lesser kaiju could win by numbers alone.
He'd only do that if he sensed it. An aggressive extraterrestrial (Legion) is more viable to set him off. Further supporting my stance that Legion is gonna get targeted first.

So, you're gonna have to prove that team Deiei has strong enough weaponry and good enough tactics. As they stand, they're tactically inept and lack strong enough weapons. And melee is just not their strong suit. Godzilla aught to clear here.
Last edited by Giratina93 on Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Voyager »

Really admiring the vast arguments and the amount of effort put into them. Kudos to both of you!
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Re: LPG vs Team Gamera Villains

Post by Nagoda »

Since this thing is still going, might as well hop back into the conversation.
Godzilla2020 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:07 pm
Godzilla was notably dominating the melee fight against Ghidorah in the artic, that and he can actually run. Something that neither Iris or Legion seem to do, he's definitely faster than both of them on the ground.
He was dominating in the melee fight yes, but a single blast of a gravity beam knocked him on his ass immediately after that brief Melee clash. Not going to say Legion''s beam will kill him in a single hit, but it'll knock him down if it's a point blank blast. Cause you can't miss a beam if the enemy is right in your face.
You do realize that gas blood would shoot out of her much quicker than liquid blood would, right? Literally any muscle deep injury should cause fatal "bleeding" on that basis.
If that is the case, why didn't the soldier Legion bleed out and withstand multiple gunshot leaks? Plus I think it is safe to assume Mother Legion is way tougher than her kin so she can probably last way longer.
I recall them bleeding out when they were shot in unarmored parts.
And they continued to move even after being hit in a place that you say should cripple them if they lose all the gas in those areas.
However for the sake of argument I will just use your argument here. Let's say Godzilla definitely beats Legion 1v1. Ok great, but he would need to focus his energy and time on Legion. He has to focus on somebody. Iris and Gyaos are going to be backing Legion up here. As I said before numbers matter a lot. We see it all the time in the wild. How a group of smaller animals can take on one larger animal simply because of the numbers. They might be weaker on their own but numbers matter a lot. Gyaos is very aggressive and will probably be attacking Godzilla nonstop. Iris is more defensive but given how aggressive Godzilla is, which you do agree with me on how aggressive he is, is going to attack Iris and provoke him to attack back very quickly.
Sure numbers matter, but only when the members are worthwhile.

The Gyaos aren't gonna be doing much of anything in terms of damage. Sure they're gonna attack, but they lack the damage output to stop Godzilla from killing Legion. By the time he's done, he'll be fine, they can't do much to him.

Iris on the other hand canonically lacks aggression to a crippling degree. Seriously, anyone who claims that Iris is gonna jump into the fray is portraying a different character entirely. Lets go over what happened before Iris threw hands(spears?) with Gamera.

First Gamera bull rushes Iris in the sky. Biting into his neck and then attempts to saw him in half. Iris sits there and lets this happen for well over 10 seconds before he decides to fight back.

So already, despite being directly attacked, Iris retaliates with the timing of an old dementia patient.

So when Iris gets Gamera off him, what next? Surely he'd retaliate again now that he has a wide open opportunity to rush in and at least incapacitate his foe right? No, he flies off and it's only due to the military throwing Gamera off course that he gets away. If he was legitimately aggressive and smart, he'd have offed what amounts to a determined threat to his life. But he didn't, he's too passive and too stupid.

What happens next? Iris lands, Gamera dive bombs with fire and fury, and Iris deflects the would be kill shots. What happens when Gamera lands, rather slowly and dramatically? Iris sits there and watches. He watches as the creature who just took a bite into his neck, attempted to saw him in two, followed him despite getting stabbed into, and now just tried to incinerate him slowly makes his landing.

At this point Iris should have just fired his sonic cutters at the throat and been done with it. This monster pursuing him wants him dead and will not take no for an answer, no matter how painful. It should have occurred to Iris to take his big and obvious shot. What did he do?

Silently stare as his would be(only due to his incompetence) grim reaper aggressively roars at him. He only responds verbally when he's roared at for a second time. He should have taken the shot at this point, anyone with half a functioning brain would have, but no. He instead lets Gamera walk up to him and start throwing hands. Even then Iris doesn't physically respond until Gamera strikes first.

Do you see what I'm talking about when I say that Iris is cripplingly passive? He does the equivalent of an armed hiker letting a mountain lion who he's previously shot in self defense twice waltz up to him after a third violent encounter. What kind of idiot would let this happen? Iris, Iris would let such events happen, and he'd sit and watch the whole time.

In this matchup, Iris is that guy who'd be just at home in r/donthelpjustfilm. He'd happily just sit there and watch as Legion gets mauled and Gyaos get shot out of the sky, and he wouldn't give a single shit until Godzilla bull rushed him. And even then his response is gonna be less than savage, it certainly wasn't that much against Gamera.
Now something I can respond against. Let's see here, Gyaos not doing much damage. That I can agree with. Their beams will probably scatter across his skin like they do against G3 Gamera with how armored he is, but they could always sacrifice themselves by flying in close to his eyes. Although these are Hyper Gyaos, meaning they are both 88 meters tall. Nowhere does it say in the stats that these gyaos are of a smaller variety, just that they are Hyper Gyaos, and Hyper Gyaos are canonically 88 meters tall. They might get torn to shreds, but with them being almost the same size as Legendary and bigger than the Male MUTO, they could probably just lift him into the air and drop him, or attempt to tear into him giving their other allies valid openings considering the Gyaos can be very annoying when they want to be. They might not do much damage, but they'll annoy the hell out of Godzilla and make up for Iris's Aggression with their own.

As for Iris, I'm really starting to get annoyed by how much you point out his lack of aggression with Gamera. It's almost as if Gamera was barely doing shit to him with his attacks and Iris had more important things to do than stop to fight someone who was barely even hurting him, a creature that was born just weeks prior. It's also almost as if his goal to finally fuse with the human who was torn out of him pre-metamorphosis took higher priority than fighting a large turtle whose attacks didn't really do anything to him and wasn't really much of a threat in the moment.

Too passive and too stupid? Iris was not going to waste time searching for his priestess again after losing her once. He knew where she was and he was determined to get to her before she disappeared again. Yes you could argue why he didn't just kill Gamera then go, but is the movie called Iris? No, it's called Gamera, meaning he's got plot on his side. And again, him easily deflecting the fireballs proves that Gamera wasn't much of a threat in the moment if Gamera's most useful attack could be thrown away like a toy. Again you state that he just lets Gamera walk up to him and only attacks when hit first. When someone weaker than you starts attacking, of course you are going to attack, or you are going to be like those cocky fighters who let their opponents get some hits in to show how useless their attacks as you walked through them. In this case, Iris choose the latter. And what did he do after immediately knocking out Gamera? Go right back to his main priority of get Ayana.

But let's say he has that crippling passiveness you say he has. Now let's go by the assumption that for this battle, Ayana told him to Kill, or he is acting under the orders of Kill. The moment he was told to kill, he started attacking like the good evil pet he was, and immediately stabbed Gamera in the chest, then continued on with his goal of get Ayana to fuse with him while dragging Gamera with him on his spear. And yes, while he didn't kill Gamera, he did incapacitate him and sucessfully go through with his main priority of fusing with Ayana, meaning he was successful in his mission. If we go off the assumption he was ordered to kill in this fight, he's going to be walking toward Godzilla to start stabbing him. While Godzilla will immediately beat him in Melee, it would still allow Legion to then come in with her own attacks and the Gyaos with their petty scratches. Iris is not going to be just standing there doing nothing, because if we go by your Passive doing nothing bullshit, then the first thing Iris is going to do in this fight is turn around and fly to wherever Ayana is, leaving his allies to their deaths while he goes to become complete.

And if we go by he is fused with Ayana, that just throws the passive bullshit before that out the door. Once he fused with Ayana, he was immediately stabbed by Gamera. How this happened you may ask? A scene prior in the film perfectly explains this. Fusing with Ayana takes time and energy, and that time is usually spent with Iris being still. Otherwise, Baby Iris would have just stabbed that boy in the chest and take back Ayana to fuse with her. If we go by after the fusion, Iris actively attacks his enemies. He stabs Gamera's hand and starts to absorb his blood to then use his enemy's power against them. But the problem with doing so here is that it'll probably fuel Godzilla if he uses Atomic Rays against him. If he is trying to stab Godzilla in this moment, I don't think Godzilla is going to just let him attack while he focuses on Legion. He's going to fight back, thus freeing up Legion.
Gyaos isn't gonna be inflicting much damage if any. Even if they distract Godzilla long enough for Legion's whips to com out, so what? It took her at least a minute between the time she got up and the time that she fired to whips at Gamera. Godzilla's gonna immediately go back to ignoring the small none threats in favor of taking out the big one. Legion's gonna get fried at this point. And that's assuming that Godzilla doesn't double tap to make sure that she's thoroughly dead, and btw it's within his character to make sure that an opponent who he wants dead is actually dead. This scenario is unlikely, but still gonna go favorably for Godzilla.
They won't be doing damage, but they will be annoying at their size. and if they can somehow manage to lift Godzilla in the air? Good on them, but it would probably take both of them to do so. Just makes their deaths come quicker by aggravating Godzilla. And that's all they would need to do to allow Legion and Iris to start stabbing. You also state that he's going to immediately ignore the small fry to go back to the bigger threats, but did he do so with the Male MUTO? No, he did not. He turned and went to fight the Male while allowing the Female to recover and do her own thing. The Gyaos will be annoying him to the point his focus is going to be on them, the two aggressive fighters of this battle.
Seeing how Godzilla fought Ghidorah and the MUTOs I doubt he has the reflexes to pull that off.
Considering that Godzilla instantly followed up a claw strike with a tail slam, he definitely has the reflexes.

It's as simple as reaching out and grabbing something that, while flailing, is not moving around. He's definitely stronger than it. It's not gonna be difficult in any sense.
What fight was this claw strike to immediate tail slam in? I don't see it in the Ghidorah fight, I don't see it in Aftershock, and the tail slam that killed the Male MUTO was when the MUTO flew right towards his face. And that attack took some time to do.
Gyaos is the only other team mate with the aggression to attack. And his form of attack isn't gonna do much of anything anyway, Godzilla can afford to ignore him in favor of dealing with Legion.
Gyaos is certainly as aggressive as Legion but I do think his beams will at the very least do minor damage to Godzilla. If MUTO Prime devastated Godzilla with a sonic attack I think Gyaos will get some results. Now I know Prime was specifically designed to counter Godzilla so the frequency was just right, but it shows sonic attacks are viable against Godzilla. Even if the damage is minor it can at least distract Godzilla or contribute a sort of death of a thousand cuts.
I already said that the beams can do minor damage, but that's it. They're ignorable, and Legion could suffer a case of friendly fire.
How can Legion suffer a case of friendly fire if her aim is shit? The beams from the Gyaos might not do much, but their clawing will be annoying, and possibly dangerous if they attack the facial area of Godzilla instead of his sides and such.
The mana beam was absolute overkill in every sense of the word. Just because I would get annihilated by a giant ww1 flamethrower doesn't mean that I would face tank an m2 flamethrower.
He's gonna burn her face off, when full on energy he can make liberal use of his atomic breath.
I contest this. If it was overkill why did Legion withstand it for several seconds? Not only that but we see throughout the battles of Gamera throwing everything he has at Legion only to pull this ability which was clearly a last resort. Despite the risks Gamera knew it was needed and the only way he had to to stop Legion.
I'll put it like this.

According to your logic, because it would take a few seconds for this absolute monster of a flamethrower to destroy me:


Than I can tank this much smaller flamethrower with no injury:



See what I mean? Lasting a few seconds but still getting deleted doesn't prove much. Especially when Godzilla's atomic breath is absurdly hot.
I go into further detail here:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads ... t-77440771

Honestly, I don't think any of the Kaiju her are gonna take a blast from Godzilla's atomic breath. It's gonna spell doom for whoever it hits. Especially since Godzilla's slow charge time only occurs when he's all tired, like in 2014. It's not gonna happen here, he's actually quite fast with it outside of that.

If Godzilla and Legion where about to fire their respective beam weapons, Godzilla's gonna beat her on the draw.
I really doubt he's going to beat Legion in a beam draw. Legion takes about 5 seconds to charge up and fire her beam. Meanwhile, Godzilla in the Arctic fight, took 10 seconds to charge up and fire his beam, almost triple that in the MUTO Fight due to their ability to weaken his ray. And since this is PRE-SUPERCHARGED Godzilla, that will be a 10 second charge up at best. Yes the beam will be doing damage to all three, but considering his opponents have a faster charge time than him and there are more of them, his beam is going to be constantly interrupted by annoyances.
As seen with the male MUTO quick and agile flying opponents can be effective against Godzilla by outflanking him. Only by outsmarting the male MUTO did he kill it. So I don't think either opponent of Godzilla will die as quickly as you think if it was 1v1. The Gyaos if Godzilla could pin them, but they probably won't let him. Especially since there are not one but TWO! Add Iris and Legion to that and I doubt any Legendary Godzilla except for Burning of course could survive.
Again, this only applies to him when he's tired. He's not tired here, he can freely blast his atomic breath at airborne nuisances.
And yet he missed Ghidorah, who was on the ground. The Gyaos are in the air. They are going to be flying around that beam if he is firing at them. Plus any moment he spends firing beams at the gyaos is a wasted beam that could be spent firing at someone like Legion or Iris. The Hyper Gyaos do avoid many of Gamera's shots, but it's only when they are hit that they freeze up. Which won't matter cause the moment they do get hit by that beam, they're most likely either very injured by it or dead.
Already addressed the beam point, and the Gyaos can be shot down. They seem to almost freeze up when nailed with a powerful attack mid air.
Godzilla's beam isn't powerful though and takes forever to charge. Even if I give Godzilla the full benefit of the doubt and say the weakness of the beam was strictly the MUTO EMP, he still has to charge it while Iris and Legion are probably up close wailing on him. It just isn't likely from my view here.
Already addressed this. Godzilla's beam is arguably the strongest one on the field.
It is among the strongest on the field. Iris's superior sonic beams will tear into him, if he decides to use them. If Legion can hit her beam, it'll damage Godzilla. Godzilla's beam at most, was shown pushing around monsters like the Female MUTO and only truly killed them when torched down the throat. Same with Ghidorah. The only time it does hit Ghidorah, is when he was supercharged, and that far stronger beam only pushed him back, and only burned Ghidorah when it was literally being shot down his severed head. It burned Kong yes, but again that was a supercharged Godzilla, and Kong is covered in fur, meaning the beam is far less powerful here when he has less power to throw into his beam.
She stabbed his underside in what appeared to be a joint between shell plates. It's not enough to prove that they can get through Godzilla's scales with any form of efficiency
I would say Legion is much stronger than Gamera. Especially when considering Legion wasn't evolved specifically to combat Gamera like the MUTOs were to Godzilla. I feel he could pierce Godzilla's hide with ease if the physically weaker MUTOs can.
You have no proof that the Mutos are weaker. If anything, they're the stronger ones, as they have the strength feats of throwing around Godzilla. None of the other Kaiju here have strength feats up to par with that.

Gonna have to provide evidence rather than falsely label the Mutos as weaker.
This would make a good FM to see what people think about this, so I'ma make it after I post this.
None of them have good enough weaponry for this to happen
Legion's ranged weapons do.
Legion can't hit shit with her beam. It's also not gonna be as effective on Godzilla as it was against Gamera.
Maybe Iris' blast as well.
The blast that he forgets about the moment his feet touch the ground?

They aren't coming into play either.
Both of these are very true. While Legion's beam might not tear through godzilla, it'll definitely hurt if it hits him. That's an IF by the way.
"Wailing"? One of them would be standing there, the other one ignores it's only good physical weapon(against opponents in it's weight class) and the others will be doing, at best, minor chip damage.

They're not gonn be co operating very well. Legion just firing risks damaging her own team
I stand by that. Legion and Gyaos are very aggressive. Iris becomes aggressive when attacked which I think we agree Godzilla is going to do. Why wouldn't he? Iris was an artificially created creature and that is just the type of thing to see Monsterverse Godzilla off. Anyway I know I am not changing anybody's mind here but hopefully that gives some perspective. I think the #1 selling point here is the numbers. Even against Godzilla lesser kaiju could win by numbers alone.
He'd only do that if he sensed it. An aggressive extraterrestrial (Legion) is more viable to set him off. Further supporting my stance that Legion is gonna get targeted first.

So, you're gonna have to prove that team Deiei has strong enough weaponry and good enough tactics. As they stand, they're tactically inept and lack strong enough weapons. And melee is just not their strong suit. Godzilla aught to clear here.
They won't be cooperating well, but they'll be doing damage at least. Legion can be deadly and she can be fast when she wants to be, or when the CGI is with her. Iris is in the same boat here. He most likely will be fighting Godzilla if we go by the assumption he absorbed Ayana or is acting under the order of Kill. Otherwise he will immediately fly away to find Ayana. The Gyaos will be beaming down on Godzilla, and it might not do much but he's going to be annoyed by two giant flying reptiles constantly trying to attack him, and if the Male MUTO could distract him and pull him off the Female MUTO, the Gyaos would be able to do the same.
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