That match was awesome, from beginning to end. Spectacular back-and-forth action between the five monsters—
The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
- ShinGojira14
- Xilien Halfling
- Posts: 5340
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
- Location: Under the Wild Montana Skies
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Well I’ll be fucking damned… … …
That match was awesome, from beginning to end. Spectacular back-and-forth action between the five monsters—
That match was awesome, from beginning to end. Spectacular back-and-forth action between the five monsters—
Spoiler:
"William Knifeman! AH! AH! AH!"
- GodzillaFan8889
- GPN Volunteer
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:04 pm
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Spoiler:
Guy who does stuff, also a KWC/KWCE writer!
I go by he/him
I go by he/him
- godjacob
- Futurian
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Spoiler:
Last edited by godjacob on Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
- CommanderPhoenix
- Monarch Researcher
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:50 pm
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Now that was one hell of a match. A 5-way monster brawl that ended in a manner that surprised me. Originally I was sad that the final match of the Shin special celebration month wasn't Shin v Ultima, as I had hoped, but then I realized:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
- Dunkeeni
- Monarch Researcher
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:08 pm
- Contact:
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Although his time here was short-lived, let's hope Shin can live on in the K.W.C.E. . . NOT!!
But ok, wasn't expecting Shin to (kinda) stay around, but hey, I'm not complaining, and I know someone who especially won't be complaining
Added in 2 minutes 23 seconds:
And now going to see Shin's new profile, ooooohhh mama we're in for a good time, ladies and gentlemen. Shin can finally use his full potential baby!!!
ALthough seriously, great match, even without a story it was just a fun, simple monster throwdown.
But ok, wasn't expecting Shin to (kinda) stay around, but hey, I'm not complaining, and I know someone who especially won't be complaining
Added in 2 minutes 23 seconds:
And now going to see Shin's new profile, ooooohhh mama we're in for a good time, ladies and gentlemen. Shin can finally use his full potential baby!!!
ALthough seriously, great match, even without a story it was just a fun, simple monster throwdown.
- KaijuX
- Site Staff
- Posts: 6240
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:47 pm
- Location: Godzilla Earth
- Contact:
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Looks like it all paid off in the end. But as I said in an earlier post, I did intend on going into greater detail on the new stuff, so…
To oversimplify (and I do mean oversimplify), before Greyshot stepped down, we had a discussion concerning Shin Godzilla; to which he approved and allowed me to pretty much be the overviewer for all subsequent Shin Godzilla matches (basically, any concerns/questions for Shin Godzilla fall in my jurisdiction).
To those who aren’t in the know, coming from the FAQ (circa August 1st, 2022), or keep up with the KWC on a regular basis, this post will double as a detailed outline of the sources and limitations when it comes to using Shin Godzilla in the KWC. While it is my wish to let people have freedom when it comes to the character, especially in a case like Shin Godzilla where it’s warranted, my general sentiments do at least agree that there should be some kind of limitation in place. So I pretty much took it on myself to dig deep and excavate everything there was about the character and pretty much have those abilities serve as “additions” or “extensions” to the base abilities (hence why they’re separately grouped in parentheses, a formatting idea I have to give credit to MoarCrossovers on).
To first lay out a disclaimer; I’m fully aware that the script interpretation differs in some respects compared to the final version we see in the movie; like the original manuscript presents a 4th-form-like creature for the 1st Form that’s almost 300 meters in length. A different beast compared to what we got with Kamata-kun. However, since we have been given authorization in using the 2nd and 3rd Forms for the KWC, I found it important to draw influence from what came before to better suit those forms for combat capabilities. In this instance, I’m operating with the logic of the best approximate abilities that correspond to said forms (so like Manuscript’s crawling phase parallels the 1st and 2nd Forms for the final movie, Manuscript’s bipedal form parallels the 3rd Form, etc.).
((Before I begin, I’d like to point out that stuff like “Shin becomes the universe” is, to my knowledge, misinformation; it’s not real and has never been attached to the character to any capacity, so anything that touches in that territory is a massive no-go. Many big names in the fandom tend to popularize it, but I’d like to reiterate that it isn’t real and will be avoided for Shin Godzilla in the KWC, KWCE, and KWC Multimedia. And no evolving into manga / doujinshi “Shin Ghidorah” neither.))
With that out of the way, let’s begin!
Electronic Scream [All Forms]: Originating from the 2013 “Godjira” manuscript where Godzilla is able to disrupt / interfere with electronic devices and such forth. It can even be active in tandem with his Atomic Ray (or at the very least flares up when charging). Interference output can for the most part be reasonably lenient, though converting it into an offensive Godzilla Earth-styled oscillation wave is a no-go.
In regards to 2nd Form using it for those hesitant, my personal recommendation is that the ability is an early-developed vocal tract, even if he doesn’t have the respiratory system to pull it off yet. Yes, there is a horror/realistic element to a fish not uttering a sound; but in this case, I think there’s also a case of a non-lunged creature trying or forcing itself to “speak” in a horror sense.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; unused footage of 2nd form “roaring”
Sprouting Forearms [2nd Form]: Admittedly more inspired by the looser “physical optimization” trait Shin has been granted for the KWC, just more restrictive to the nubs in the case of 2nd Form. However, concept art and sculptures pertaining to the 2nd Form specifically does have 2nd Form with arms; for all intents and purposes, they can be little nublet hands or arms that allow for clumsy four-legged locomotion. These can be carried over into the subsequent forms.
Sources: 2nd Form Prototype Sculpt by Takayuki Takeya; Manuscript crawling phase artwork
Atomic Explosion [2nd Form]: Taken from the various storyboards for when Shin transitions from 2nd to 3rd Forms. This can serve as a one-time offensive means to transition into its next stage, shedding its exterior in the process. While the release of energy could stave off the overheating attribute temporarily, the additional stress of developing said powers early could also result in an early-onset of overheating–just something to keep in mind! Also, keep the color of the blast blue.
Sources: Shin Godzilla storyboards
Physical Optimization [3rd Form]: A carryover from the KWC’s depiction of the 4th Form, it was decided that 3rd Form should be allowed very similar flexibilities–like developing armor, shedding, body / arm-related configuration, and so on. The durability of said armor, however, shouldn’t be 4th Form levels of resistance; this is at least supported in the original manuscript, as the bipedal phase was still injured by conventional weapons, though in little harm actually sustained. Likewise, these optimizations shouldn’t derail 3rd Form too heavily by default, unless another form is applied (see “Primordial Urvogel” for more), and likewise shouldn’t be as extreme as 4th Form.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; K.W.C.
Radiation Heat Ray [3rd Form]: This one is probably going to raise a lot of eyebrows, but as I said, it parallels the manuscript’s biped form. Thermal Flame isn’t required for this, as the manuscript displays the form being able to discharge the atomic ray from the get-go. The beam itself will be traditionally blue, to match with 2nd Form’s explosion and differentiate from 4th Form’s purple beam, and generally more traditional looking from the artwork (or even how it appears in the Shin Crayon crossover). Recommended that the back glows blue (as it already glows red from overheating), but no split-jaw.
Note: Terminology has been switched up some; “Radiation Heat Ray” now refers to 3rd’s atomic ray, whereas the purple beam from 4th will be henceforth known as the “Condensed Atomic Ray.”
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; concept art; Shin Crayon crossover
Primordial Urvogel [3rd Form]: While by every right it should be its own designation, since we’re locked to “canon,” it was better to consider this an extension to the 3rd Form (the urvogel comes after the bipedal phase, but precedes the “massive dinosaur” final form). General rule of thumb is, similar to the Quetzalcoatl from Godzilla The Series, that this is a “feathered reptilian” used for flying around. While there’s plenty of legroom for personal interpretation (i.e. upright posture, hunched, forward leaning, etc.), it shouldn’t derail from the general 3rd Form shape and characteristics (so he keeps those big ol’ fish eyes, dorsal plates, and so on) while also not detracting from the fact that he turns into an archaeopteryx-like creature. All of 3rd Form’s abilities and adaptations apply to this state.
None of the traits of the urvogel will carry over into the 4th Form; this is noted in the manuscript, as the “massive dinosaur” final form is never referenced with flight-related capabilities and pretty much keeps grounded for the rest of the draft. There is also no noted change in size between the normal 3rd Form and the urvogel state.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript
Physical Optimization [4th Form]: Simply put, the same general rules we’ve had thusfar when it comes to Shin. Armor shedding, leaner / more durable armor, arm configuration, shift in body mass / stance, etc. And again, shouldn’t stray too heavily from 4th Form unless another of the powers listed allows for that push.
(Note: The adaptation in Match 380 was given a pass under the conditions of being a more extreme version of the “mouths” from the Maeda artwork.)
(Shin Ultraman Spoilers)
Sources: K.W.C.
Multi-Headed Self-Proliferation [4th Form]: As a means of cloning / propagation, Shin Godzilla is pretty much able to duplicate himself, although this has proven to be a somewhat slower and arduous process. If left in a blank room or by himself, he starts from the head which gradually splits in half, then fourths, then eighths; only up to 8 Godzillas can be produced at a time through this method. However, since he has two heads, it is considered acceptable that the proliferation process can start from the tail. The atomic ray can still be discharged from either end.
However, since it’ll be likely Shin will be in a combat situation, it’s all right for the effects of the self-proliferation to take on different avenue, like “mouth holes” to discharge atomic rays from or what have you (basically view any of the other Maeda artwork for reference). Just so long as he’s justifiably maimed to where this can occur.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; “Godzilla Proliferation” concept art from Mahiro Maeda
Animated Severed Tissue [4th Form]: The K.W.C. has dabbled in this a little with the likes of “The Thing” homages of 288 and 380, or the slithering tail of 379, there are just simply a myriad of other scenes pertaining to the “living flesh” of Shin Godzilla. None of these should be “instantaneously” moving around per se, unless they’re large enough like the tail being severed or something to that effect.
Sources: Shin Godzilla deleted scenes; K.W.C.
Energy Absorption [4th Form]: Although presented in a more “absorbs energy to recharge faster” manner in the Ride, the K.W.C. has taken it a step further and allowed GMK-styled “absorbs energy weapon and merges it with his own breath” logic. Given the precedent set, this will remain the same as it has been.
Sources: Godzilla vs. Evangelion: The Real 4-D
Tail-Based Locomotion [4th Form]: Weird to think that this was more than just test footage; turns out this was really going to be a scene in the movie, during the Operation Yashiori sequence! Should circumstances allow, more than free to let Shin Godzilla slide around on his tail.
Sources: Shin Godzilla test / deleted scenes; the final script of the movie
Sprouting Wings [4th Form]: There’s no doubt in my mind that the “flight” ability was meant in reference to the urvogel; but since we know that part with certainty, it’d be best to assess that the wings would be “scaly feathers.” However, whether the wings are from the arms or the back, that part is entirely up to you, the writer (sorry to any “jet propulsion” stans out there).
Sources: Inference from Shin Godzilla
Cellular Inhibitors [Weakness]: It’s an easy miss considering the amount of dialogue and technojargain frontloaded, but Shin Godzilla’s greatest strength is himself–but it’s also his greatest weakness. It’s these inhibitors that allowed Operation Yashiori to occur the way it did, so it’s always important to remember that not everything at Shin’s disposal is infallible. Sure, the extra bonus abilities may extend that ceiling, but every character has a natural limit–and Shin is no exception to that.
Sources: Dialogue / computer visual from Shin Godzilla
5th Form [Evolution]: I’m fully aware that the humanoid forms we see in the movie are not only symbolic in nature, but taken at face value, meant to be a response to counteract humanity (“to fight a committee, one must become a committee”). While it is a logical assessment that the “5th form” can take on whatever shape it wants in response to a kaiju threat, in best interest in keeping to the material provided, we’ll be keeping the 5th form rooted in the small humanoids seen at the end. However, it is more than fine for the humanoids and 4th Form to “co-exist” in a sense, or even for the 4th Form to completely break down into all-humanoids.
In terms of design, we are only going to be adhering to the designs of Takayuki Takeya; so no bizarre crystalline monstrosities or “women in prayer.” Takeya’s designs do reflect what we see in the final version, with it being fine for the 5th form to have more masculine or feminine qualities depending on the individual.
Another major rule of thumb is that the humanoids are not allowed to speak; no development of human speech for these guys. Aside from the lack of lips, it’d just be taking it a step too far.
And lastly, powers… To keep it simple, they’re just Mini 4th Forms. So anything 4th Form has carries into 5th Form, but NOT from 2nd or 3rd. And while I’m confident I’ve scraped the bottom of the barrel, if there are any powers updated to 4th form, they’ll most likely apply to 5th form as well (unless stated otherwise).
Whew… This one was a beast to handle. But I think this serves as a good compromise between the wacky hijinks intended while also keeping it faithful to what we know. Nevertheless, I hope writers really get a kick out of this new spin, and I hope our readers look forward to the insanity to come!
Massive credit to KyoeiToshi for the plethora of confirmations with a lot of these!
To oversimplify (and I do mean oversimplify), before Greyshot stepped down, we had a discussion concerning Shin Godzilla; to which he approved and allowed me to pretty much be the overviewer for all subsequent Shin Godzilla matches (basically, any concerns/questions for Shin Godzilla fall in my jurisdiction).
To those who aren’t in the know, coming from the FAQ (circa August 1st, 2022), or keep up with the KWC on a regular basis, this post will double as a detailed outline of the sources and limitations when it comes to using Shin Godzilla in the KWC. While it is my wish to let people have freedom when it comes to the character, especially in a case like Shin Godzilla where it’s warranted, my general sentiments do at least agree that there should be some kind of limitation in place. So I pretty much took it on myself to dig deep and excavate everything there was about the character and pretty much have those abilities serve as “additions” or “extensions” to the base abilities (hence why they’re separately grouped in parentheses, a formatting idea I have to give credit to MoarCrossovers on).
To first lay out a disclaimer; I’m fully aware that the script interpretation differs in some respects compared to the final version we see in the movie; like the original manuscript presents a 4th-form-like creature for the 1st Form that’s almost 300 meters in length. A different beast compared to what we got with Kamata-kun. However, since we have been given authorization in using the 2nd and 3rd Forms for the KWC, I found it important to draw influence from what came before to better suit those forms for combat capabilities. In this instance, I’m operating with the logic of the best approximate abilities that correspond to said forms (so like Manuscript’s crawling phase parallels the 1st and 2nd Forms for the final movie, Manuscript’s bipedal form parallels the 3rd Form, etc.).
((Before I begin, I’d like to point out that stuff like “Shin becomes the universe” is, to my knowledge, misinformation; it’s not real and has never been attached to the character to any capacity, so anything that touches in that territory is a massive no-go. Many big names in the fandom tend to popularize it, but I’d like to reiterate that it isn’t real and will be avoided for Shin Godzilla in the KWC, KWCE, and KWC Multimedia. And no evolving into manga / doujinshi “Shin Ghidorah” neither.))
With that out of the way, let’s begin!
Electronic Scream [All Forms]: Originating from the 2013 “Godjira” manuscript where Godzilla is able to disrupt / interfere with electronic devices and such forth. It can even be active in tandem with his Atomic Ray (or at the very least flares up when charging). Interference output can for the most part be reasonably lenient, though converting it into an offensive Godzilla Earth-styled oscillation wave is a no-go.
In regards to 2nd Form using it for those hesitant, my personal recommendation is that the ability is an early-developed vocal tract, even if he doesn’t have the respiratory system to pull it off yet. Yes, there is a horror/realistic element to a fish not uttering a sound; but in this case, I think there’s also a case of a non-lunged creature trying or forcing itself to “speak” in a horror sense.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; unused footage of 2nd form “roaring”
Sprouting Forearms [2nd Form]: Admittedly more inspired by the looser “physical optimization” trait Shin has been granted for the KWC, just more restrictive to the nubs in the case of 2nd Form. However, concept art and sculptures pertaining to the 2nd Form specifically does have 2nd Form with arms; for all intents and purposes, they can be little nublet hands or arms that allow for clumsy four-legged locomotion. These can be carried over into the subsequent forms.
Sources: 2nd Form Prototype Sculpt by Takayuki Takeya; Manuscript crawling phase artwork
Atomic Explosion [2nd Form]: Taken from the various storyboards for when Shin transitions from 2nd to 3rd Forms. This can serve as a one-time offensive means to transition into its next stage, shedding its exterior in the process. While the release of energy could stave off the overheating attribute temporarily, the additional stress of developing said powers early could also result in an early-onset of overheating–just something to keep in mind! Also, keep the color of the blast blue.
Sources: Shin Godzilla storyboards
Physical Optimization [3rd Form]: A carryover from the KWC’s depiction of the 4th Form, it was decided that 3rd Form should be allowed very similar flexibilities–like developing armor, shedding, body / arm-related configuration, and so on. The durability of said armor, however, shouldn’t be 4th Form levels of resistance; this is at least supported in the original manuscript, as the bipedal phase was still injured by conventional weapons, though in little harm actually sustained. Likewise, these optimizations shouldn’t derail 3rd Form too heavily by default, unless another form is applied (see “Primordial Urvogel” for more), and likewise shouldn’t be as extreme as 4th Form.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; K.W.C.
Radiation Heat Ray [3rd Form]: This one is probably going to raise a lot of eyebrows, but as I said, it parallels the manuscript’s biped form. Thermal Flame isn’t required for this, as the manuscript displays the form being able to discharge the atomic ray from the get-go. The beam itself will be traditionally blue, to match with 2nd Form’s explosion and differentiate from 4th Form’s purple beam, and generally more traditional looking from the artwork (or even how it appears in the Shin Crayon crossover). Recommended that the back glows blue (as it already glows red from overheating), but no split-jaw.
Note: Terminology has been switched up some; “Radiation Heat Ray” now refers to 3rd’s atomic ray, whereas the purple beam from 4th will be henceforth known as the “Condensed Atomic Ray.”
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; concept art; Shin Crayon crossover
Primordial Urvogel [3rd Form]: While by every right it should be its own designation, since we’re locked to “canon,” it was better to consider this an extension to the 3rd Form (the urvogel comes after the bipedal phase, but precedes the “massive dinosaur” final form). General rule of thumb is, similar to the Quetzalcoatl from Godzilla The Series, that this is a “feathered reptilian” used for flying around. While there’s plenty of legroom for personal interpretation (i.e. upright posture, hunched, forward leaning, etc.), it shouldn’t derail from the general 3rd Form shape and characteristics (so he keeps those big ol’ fish eyes, dorsal plates, and so on) while also not detracting from the fact that he turns into an archaeopteryx-like creature. All of 3rd Form’s abilities and adaptations apply to this state.
None of the traits of the urvogel will carry over into the 4th Form; this is noted in the manuscript, as the “massive dinosaur” final form is never referenced with flight-related capabilities and pretty much keeps grounded for the rest of the draft. There is also no noted change in size between the normal 3rd Form and the urvogel state.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript
Physical Optimization [4th Form]: Simply put, the same general rules we’ve had thusfar when it comes to Shin. Armor shedding, leaner / more durable armor, arm configuration, shift in body mass / stance, etc. And again, shouldn’t stray too heavily from 4th Form unless another of the powers listed allows for that push.
(Note: The adaptation in Match 380 was given a pass under the conditions of being a more extreme version of the “mouths” from the Maeda artwork.)
(Shin Ultraman Spoilers)
Spoiler:
Multi-Headed Self-Proliferation [4th Form]: As a means of cloning / propagation, Shin Godzilla is pretty much able to duplicate himself, although this has proven to be a somewhat slower and arduous process. If left in a blank room or by himself, he starts from the head which gradually splits in half, then fourths, then eighths; only up to 8 Godzillas can be produced at a time through this method. However, since he has two heads, it is considered acceptable that the proliferation process can start from the tail. The atomic ray can still be discharged from either end.
However, since it’ll be likely Shin will be in a combat situation, it’s all right for the effects of the self-proliferation to take on different avenue, like “mouth holes” to discharge atomic rays from or what have you (basically view any of the other Maeda artwork for reference). Just so long as he’s justifiably maimed to where this can occur.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; “Godzilla Proliferation” concept art from Mahiro Maeda
Animated Severed Tissue [4th Form]: The K.W.C. has dabbled in this a little with the likes of “The Thing” homages of 288 and 380, or the slithering tail of 379, there are just simply a myriad of other scenes pertaining to the “living flesh” of Shin Godzilla. None of these should be “instantaneously” moving around per se, unless they’re large enough like the tail being severed or something to that effect.
Sources: Shin Godzilla deleted scenes; K.W.C.
Energy Absorption [4th Form]: Although presented in a more “absorbs energy to recharge faster” manner in the Ride, the K.W.C. has taken it a step further and allowed GMK-styled “absorbs energy weapon and merges it with his own breath” logic. Given the precedent set, this will remain the same as it has been.
Sources: Godzilla vs. Evangelion: The Real 4-D
Tail-Based Locomotion [4th Form]: Weird to think that this was more than just test footage; turns out this was really going to be a scene in the movie, during the Operation Yashiori sequence! Should circumstances allow, more than free to let Shin Godzilla slide around on his tail.
Sources: Shin Godzilla test / deleted scenes; the final script of the movie
Sprouting Wings [4th Form]: There’s no doubt in my mind that the “flight” ability was meant in reference to the urvogel; but since we know that part with certainty, it’d be best to assess that the wings would be “scaly feathers.” However, whether the wings are from the arms or the back, that part is entirely up to you, the writer (sorry to any “jet propulsion” stans out there).
Sources: Inference from Shin Godzilla
Cellular Inhibitors [Weakness]: It’s an easy miss considering the amount of dialogue and technojargain frontloaded, but Shin Godzilla’s greatest strength is himself–but it’s also his greatest weakness. It’s these inhibitors that allowed Operation Yashiori to occur the way it did, so it’s always important to remember that not everything at Shin’s disposal is infallible. Sure, the extra bonus abilities may extend that ceiling, but every character has a natural limit–and Shin is no exception to that.
Sources: Dialogue / computer visual from Shin Godzilla
5th Form [Evolution]: I’m fully aware that the humanoid forms we see in the movie are not only symbolic in nature, but taken at face value, meant to be a response to counteract humanity (“to fight a committee, one must become a committee”). While it is a logical assessment that the “5th form” can take on whatever shape it wants in response to a kaiju threat, in best interest in keeping to the material provided, we’ll be keeping the 5th form rooted in the small humanoids seen at the end. However, it is more than fine for the humanoids and 4th Form to “co-exist” in a sense, or even for the 4th Form to completely break down into all-humanoids.
In terms of design, we are only going to be adhering to the designs of Takayuki Takeya; so no bizarre crystalline monstrosities or “women in prayer.” Takeya’s designs do reflect what we see in the final version, with it being fine for the 5th form to have more masculine or feminine qualities depending on the individual.
Another major rule of thumb is that the humanoids are not allowed to speak; no development of human speech for these guys. Aside from the lack of lips, it’d just be taking it a step too far.
And lastly, powers… To keep it simple, they’re just Mini 4th Forms. So anything 4th Form has carries into 5th Form, but NOT from 2nd or 3rd. And while I’m confident I’ve scraped the bottom of the barrel, if there are any powers updated to 4th form, they’ll most likely apply to 5th form as well (unless stated otherwise).
Whew… This one was a beast to handle. But I think this serves as a good compromise between the wacky hijinks intended while also keeping it faithful to what we know. Nevertheless, I hope writers really get a kick out of this new spin, and I hope our readers look forward to the insanity to come!
Massive credit to KyoeiToshi for the plethora of confirmations with a lot of these!
Last edited by KaijuX on Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
KWC Co-Operations Manager and Resident Wumbo.
Soggy Noodles wrote:Anno brought back Showa ambition by doing smaller scales, morals and trying to examine humanity.
Seshita brought back Heisei ambition with absurd powerscaling, rad fights and fat asses.
Pair of kings.
MoarCrossovers wrote:We snorted crushed Morbius DVDs and snail shells
- godjacob
- Futurian
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Goddamn, you are a godsend and the amount of effort to pull this off is astounding. You have my eternal respect man and Shin will have a brighter future with more fun matches as a result.KaijuX wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:17 am Looks like it all paid off in the end. But as I said in an earlier post, I did intend on going into greater detail on the new stuff, so…
To oversimplify (and I do mean oversimplify), before Greyshot stepped down, we had a discussion concerning Shin Godzilla; to which he approved and allowed me to pretty much be the overviewer for all subsequent Shin Godzilla matches (basically, any concerns/questions for Shin Godzilla fall in my jurisdiction).
To those who aren’t in the know, coming from the FAQ (circa August 1st, 2022), or keep up with the KWC on a regular basis, this post will double as a detailed outline of the sources and limitations when it comes to using Shin Godzilla in the KWC. While it is my wish to let people have freedom when it comes to the character, especially in a case like Shin Godzilla where it’s warranted, my general sentiments do at least agree that there should be some kind of limitation in place. So I pretty much took it on myself to dig deep and excavate everything there was about the character and pretty much have those abilities serve as “additions” or “extensions” to the base abilities (hence why they’re separately grouped in parentheses, a formatting idea I have to give credit to MoarCrossovers on).
To first lay out a disclaimer; I’m fully aware that the script interpretation differs in some respects compared to the final version we see in the movie; like the original manuscript presents a 4th-form-like creature for the 1st Form that’s almost 300 meters in length. A different beast compared to what we got with Kamata-kun. However, since we have been given authorization in using the 2nd and 3rd Forms for the KWC, I found it important to draw influence from what came before to better suit those forms for combat capabilities. In this instance, I’m operating with the logic of the best approximate abilities that correspond to said forms (so like Manuscript’s crawling phase parallels the 1st and 2nd Forms for the final movie, Manuscript’s bipedal form parallels the 3rd Form, etc.).
((Before I begin, I’d like to point out that stuff like “Shin becomes the universe” is, to my knowledge, misinformation; it’s not real and has never been attached to the character to any capacity, so anything that touches in that territory is a massive no-go. Many big names in the fandom tend to popularize it, but I’d like to reiterate that it isn’t real and will be avoided for Shin Godzilla in the KWC, KWCE, and KWC Multimedia. And no evolving into manga / doujinshi “Shin Ghidorah” neither.))
With that out of the way, let’s begin!
Electronic Scream [All Forms]: Originating from the 2013 “Godjira” manuscript where Godzilla is able to disrupt / interfere with electronic devices and such forth. It can even be active in tandem with his Atomic Ray (or at the very least flares up when charging). Interference output can for the most part be reasonably lenient, though converting it into an offensive Godzilla Earth-styled oscillation wave is a no-go.
In regards to 2nd Form using it for those hesitant, my personal recommendation is that the ability is an early-developed vocal tract, even if he doesn’t have the respiratory system to pull it off yet. Yes, there is a horror/realistic element to a fish not uttering a sound; but in this case, I think there’s also a case of a non-lunged creature trying or forcing itself to “speak” in a horror sense.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; unused footage of 2nd form “roaring”
Sprouting Forearms [2nd Form]: Admittedly more inspired by the looser “physical optimization” trait Shin has been granted for the KWC, just more restrictive to the nubs in the case of 2nd Form. However, concept art and sculptures pertaining to the 2nd Form specifically does have 2nd Form with arms; for all intents and purposes, they can be little nublet hands or arms that allow for clumsy four-legged locomotion. These can be carried over into the subsequent forms.
Sources: 2nd Form Prototype Sculpt by Takayuki Takeya; Manuscript crawling phase artwork
Atomic Explosion [2nd Form]: Taken from the various storyboards for when Shin transitions from 2nd to 3rd Forms. This can serve as a one-time offensive means to transition into its next stage, shedding its exterior in the process. While the release of energy could stave off the overheating attribute temporarily, the additional stress of developing said powers early could also result in an early-onset of overheating–just something to keep in mind! Also, keep the color of the blast blue.
Sources: Shin Godzilla storyboards
Physical Optimization [3rd Form]: A carryover from the KWC’s depiction of the 4th Form, it was decided that 3rd Form should be allowed very similar flexibilities–like developing armor, shedding, body / arm-related configuration, and so on. The durability of said armor, however, shouldn’t be 4th Form levels of resistance; this is at least supported in the original manuscript, as the bipedal phase was still injured by conventional weapons, though in little harm actually sustained. Likewise, these optimizations shouldn’t derail 3rd Form too heavily by default, unless another form is applied (see “Primordial Urvogel” for more), and likewise shouldn’t be as extreme as 4th Form.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; K.W.C.
Radiation Heat Ray [3rd Form]: This one is probably going to raise a lot of eyebrows, but as I said, it parallels the manuscript’s biped form. Thermal Flame isn’t required for this, as the manuscript displays the form being able to discharge the atomic ray from the get-go. The beam itself will be traditionally blue, to match with 2nd Form’s explosion and differentiate from 4th Form’s purple beam, and generally more traditional looking from the artwork (or even how it appears in the Shin Crayon crossover). Recommended that the back glows blue (as it already glows red from overheating), but no split-jaw.
Note: Terminology has been switched up some; “Radiation Heat Ray” now refers to 3rd’s atomic ray, whereas the purple beam from 4th will be henceforth known as the “Condensed Atomic Ray.”
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; concept art; Shin Crayon crossover
Primordial Urvogel [3rd Form]: While by every right it should be its own designation, since we’re locked to “canon,” it was better to consider this an extension to the 3rd Form (the urvogel comes after the bipedal phase, but precedes the “massive dinosaur” final form). General rule of thumb is, similar to the Quetzalcoatl from Godzilla The Series, that this is a “feathered reptilian” used for flying around. While there’s plenty of legroom for personal interpretation (i.e. upright posture, hunched, forward leaning, etc.), it shouldn’t derail from the general 3rd Form shape and characteristics (so he keeps those big ol’ fish eyes, dorsal plates, and so on) while also not detracting from the fact that he turns into an archaeopteryx-like creature. All of 3rd Form’s abilities and adaptations apply to this state.
None of the traits of the urvogel will carry over into the 4th Form; this is noted in the manuscript, as the “massive dinosaur” final form is never referenced with flight-related capabilities and pretty much keeps grounded for the rest of the draft. There is also no noted change in size between the normal 3rd Form and the urvogel state.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript
Physical Optimization [4th Form]: Simply put, the same general rules we’ve had thusfar when it comes to Shin. Armor shedding, leaner / more durable armor, arm configuration, shift in body mass / stance, etc. And again, shouldn’t stray too heavily from 4th Form unless another of the powers listed allows for that push.
(Note: The adaptation in Match 380 was given a pass under the conditions of being a more extreme version of the “mouths” from the Maeda artwork.)
(Shin Ultraman Spoilers)Sources: K.W.C.Spoiler:
Multi-Headed Self-Proliferation [4th Form]: As a means of cloning / propagation, Shin Godzilla is pretty much able to duplicate himself, although this has proven to be a somewhat slower and arduous process. If left in a blank room or by himself, he starts from the head which gradually splits in half, then fourths, then eighths; only up to 8 Godzillas can be produced at a time through this method. However, since he has two heads, it is considered acceptable that the proliferation process can start from the tail. The atomic ray can still be discharged from either end.
However, since it’ll be likely Shin will be in a combat situation, it’s all right for the effects of the self-proliferation to take on different avenue, like “mouth holes” to discharge atomic rays from or what have you (basically view any of the other Maeda artwork for reference). Just so long as he’s justifiably maimed to where this can occur.
Sources: Shin Godzilla 2013 Manuscript; “Godzilla Proliferation” concept art from Mahiro Maeda
Animated Severed Tissue [4th Form]: The K.W.C. has dabbled in this a little with the likes of “The Thing” homages of 288 and 380, or the slithering tail of 379, there are just simply a myriad of other scenes pertaining to the “living flesh” of Shin Godzilla. None of these should be “instantaneously” moving around per se, unless they’re large enough like the tail being severed or something to that effect.
Sources: Shin Godzilla deleted scenes; K.W.C.
Energy Absorption [4th Form]: Although presented in a more “absorbs energy to recharge faster” manner in the Ride, the K.W.C. has taken it a step further and allowed GMK-styled “absorbs energy weapon and merges it with his own breath” logic. Given the precedent set, this will remain the same as it has been.
Sources: Godzilla vs. Evangelion: The Real 4-D
Tail-Based Locomotion [4th Form]: Weird to think that this was more than just test footage; turns out this was really going to be a scene in the movie, during the Operation Yashiori sequence! Should circumstances allow, more than free to let Shin Godzilla slide around on his tail.
Sources: Shin Godzilla test / deleted scenes; the final script of the movie
Sprouting Wings [4th Form]: There’s no doubt in my mind that the “flight” ability was meant in reference to the urvogel; but since we know that part with certainty, it’d be best to assess that the wings would be “scaly feathers.” However, whether the wings are from the arms or the back, that part is entirely up to you, the writer (sorry to any “jet propulsion” stans out there).
Sources: Inference from Shin Godzilla
Cellular Inhibitors [Weakness]: It’s an easy miss considering the amount of dialogue and technojargain frontloaded, but Shin Godzilla’s greatest strength is himself–but it’s also his greatest weakness. It’s these inhibitors that allowed Operation Yashiori to occur the way it did, so it’s always important to remember that not everything at Shin’s disposal is infallible. Sure, the extra bonus abilities may extend that ceiling, but every character has a natural limit–and Shin is no exception to that.
Sources: Dialogue / computer visual from Shin Godzilla
5th Form [Evolution]: I’m fully aware that the humanoid forms we see in the movie are not only symbolic in nature, but taken at face value, meant to be a response to counteract humanity (“to fight a committee, one must become a committee”). While it is a logical assessment that the “5th form” can take on whatever shape it wants in response to a kaiju threat, in best interest in keeping to the material provided, we’ll be keeping the 5th form rooted in the small humanoids seen at the end. However, it is more than fine for the humanoids and 4th Form to “co-exist” in a sense, or even for the 4th Form to completely break down into all-humanoids.
In terms of design, we are only going to be adhering to the designs of Takayuki Takeya; so no bizarre crystalline monstrosities or “women in prayer.” Takeya’s designs do reflect what we see in the final version, with it being fine for the 5th form to have more masculine or feminine qualities depending on the individual.
Another major rule of thumb is that the humanoids are not allowed to speak; no development of human speech for these guys. Aside from the lack of lips, it’d just be taking it a step too far.
And lastly, powers… To keep it simple, they’re just Mini 4th Forms. So anything 4th Form has carries into 5th Form, but NOT from 2nd or 3rd. And while I’m confident I’ve scraped the bottom of the barrel, if there are any powers updated to 4th form, they’ll most likely apply to 5th form as well (unless stated otherwise).
Whew… This one was a beast to handle. But I think this serves as a good compromise between the wacky hijinks intended while also keeping it faithful to what we know. Nevertheless, I hope writers really get a kick out of this new spin, and I hope our readers look forward to the insanity to come!
Massive credit to KyoeiToshi for the plethora of confirmations with a lot of these!
- ShinGojira14
- Xilien Halfling
- Posts: 5340
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
- Location: Under the Wild Montana Skies
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
For some reason the links aren't working. I click on them and it responds "the source cannot be found."
"William Knifeman! AH! AH! AH!"
- KaijuX
- Site Staff
- Posts: 6240
- Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:47 pm
- Location: Godzilla Earth
- Contact:
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Fixed them all. I had quotation marks around the links in the URL thing, kinda screwed it up. All of them should be available now!ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:32 amFor some reason the links aren't working. I click on them and it responds "the source cannot be found."
KWC Co-Operations Manager and Resident Wumbo.
Soggy Noodles wrote:Anno brought back Showa ambition by doing smaller scales, morals and trying to examine humanity.
Seshita brought back Heisei ambition with absurd powerscaling, rad fights and fat asses.
Pair of kings.
MoarCrossovers wrote:We snorted crushed Morbius DVDs and snail shells
- Gigantis
- Sazer
- Posts: 10492
- Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:52 pm
- Location: Nebula of the Orion
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
My new goal when it comes to writing a Shin Goji fight is that he uses his tail to charge at his opponent and slam into them at full force.
A guy who randomly stumbled upon this place one day, invested much too much time into it, and now appears to be stuck here for all eternity..and strangely enough, i do not regret it!
- CommanderPhoenix
- Monarch Researcher
- Posts: 311
- Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2021 6:50 pm
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
My dreams of Shin being used to sneak Valstrax into the KWC have been shattered, how could you, worst lead ever, etc. etc.
Joking aside, that's one long list, but not surprising for such an adaptive beast.
Joking aside, that's one long list, but not surprising for such an adaptive beast.
- Dunkeeni
- Monarch Researcher
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:08 pm
- Contact:
- Nagoda
- Futurian
- Posts: 3565
- Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:49 am
- Location: Trapped in a white void as a chibi.
- Contact:
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Well from the footage, it seems he just slithers forth at max speed like a snake.
A reminder to watch Chouseishin Gransazers.
_______
A semi-talented Chibi who is always tired.
_______
A semi-talented Chibi who is always tired.
- godjacob
- Futurian
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Shin Godzilla vs. Manda. Book it now you cowards XD
- ShinGojira14
- Xilien Halfling
- Posts: 5340
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
- Location: Under the Wild Montana Skies
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
How about you write it?
"William Knifeman! AH! AH! AH!"
- godjacob
- Futurian
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Not an author and would rather up my own writing ability before I dared to tackle an attempt at a KWC bout.
- ShinGojira14
- Xilien Halfling
- Posts: 5340
- Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:08 pm
- Location: Under the Wild Montana Skies
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
I think you should try it. I've used the KWC and KWCE as practice for my writing ability, and still do today.godjacob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:56 pmNot an author and would rather up my own writing ability before I dared to tackle an attempt at a KWC bout.
I have faith in you.
"William Knifeman! AH! AH! AH!"
- HillyHulk
- Gotengo Officer
- Posts: 1945
- Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 12:59 pm
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Same here, this place can really up your writing ability if you have the confidence for it.ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:59 pmI think you should try it. I've used the KWC and KWCE as practice for my writing ability, and still do today.
I have faith in you.
- Dunkeeni
- Monarch Researcher
- Posts: 366
- Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:08 pm
- Contact:
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
Oh, Christ that is scary, but also hilarious to imagine
- godjacob
- Futurian
- Posts: 3439
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am
Re: The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread
I appreciate the vote of confidence. I won't promise anything but I'll least think it over.HillyHulk wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:03 pmSame here, this place can really up your writing ability if you have the confidence for it.ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:59 pmI think you should try it. I've used the KWC and KWCE as practice for my writing ability, and still do today.
I have faith in you.