The K.W.C. General Discussion Thread

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

We retire monsters because it is what we need to do. It frees up space on the perpetually bloating roster, and in cases such as Mecha-King Ghidorah, it is because we want to bring in a character that fills a similar role but has more to offer overall. Grand and MV have enough difference between them in terms of personality, story potential, and powers to justify having both. While everything MKG does can be done better with several other combatants.

We are not losing the cast of GvKG as characters just because a combatant has been removed, they can still be worked into a match if one is creative. And we are not doing this just to “look busy”, we are looking long term and thinking this all through. Do you people think we just retire monsters on a whim? The staff has long discussions whenever stuff like this is brought up, with people on both sides of the argument going back and forth. Retiring a monster is not as simple as going “and they’re gone.” And, there’s always gonna be fans of MKG? Well they aren’t writing matches, that’s for fucking certain. And they haven’t been for a long fucking time.

[soulgodzilla]

Yeah, I agree with what GVR said.

Now to be honest, I am gonna miss Mecha King Ghidorah since he used to be my favorite during my earliest years of being a Godzilla fan. But at the same time, I’m curious to see how people would write with Ghidorah Millennium.

[KaijuX]

This has been said in the KWCC, so I won't spoil-tag it here. There'll be a voting option at the beginning of 2022 (once we've phased out all the retirees on the table) that'll let y'all decide which monster (or monsters) to bring back. Because at the very least, I'm at least semi-inclined to agree there had been points where Greyshot and the rest of us didn't make the right call when retiring monsters. And I think they should still be given the chance; however, if getting GMK Ghidorah requires us to retire MKG, then that's the route we'll be going for, even if it's only for the time being.

For me, I think the following are pretty unanimous that we'll never bring back:
-Showa Baragon
-Heisei Mothra
-Heisei Ghidorah
-Godzillasaurus

The rest, in my opinion, I'm more open to bringing back (some mixed, others unjustified in being retired to begin with). But sadly that isn't my call exclusively to make.

And anyone who says "but the roster is super bloated"--I have a solution. However, I'd much rather have the retirees we have on the board be put into retirement first before we enact it, because (in its current draft), will require substantial reorganization/separation of the Combatant Statistics for the future. It'll take some time and some talking, but it's still on the board and will be done.

[ShinGojira14]

Why do people complain about KWC retirements when the KWCE exists? Mecha King Ghidorah is still there and can still be used—only now, he can literally fight ANYBODY!

[TitanoGoji16]

I've been working on this post for way too long and I just want to be done with it so here it is (I'm spoiling it simply for length):

Spoiler:

Didn't you retire Heisei King Ghidorah during your run of the KWC?

Plus you literally retired Heisei King Ghidorah for Mecha-King Ghidorah so you don't have much room to talk there.

Mecha-King Ghidorah is Heisei Ghidorah, so it's less like he was retired and more like he was upgraded. It'd be like replacing Heisei Mechagodzilla with Super Mechagodzilla, or Heisei Rodan with Fire Rodan. Also, that was back when the incarnation limit was a thing. We didn't retire Heisei Ghidorah immediately after bragging about how the KWC no longer had an incarnation limit.

"We can now add as many incarnations of each kaiju as we want! To celebrate and show off this new rule, we will kick Mecha-King Ghidorah out and keep the Ghidorahs at five instead of bringing GMK Ghidorah in alongside them and making it six!"

Also, in all honesty, I'm not entirely sure if I was in charge yet or not, or if I was just a major contributor at the time. I intended "Match 52: King Ghidorah (Heisei) vs. King Kong (Showa), King Caesar (Millennium) & Red King" to be Heisei Ghidorah's final match, but that ended up not happening - And obviously, if I was in charge, I would've been able to make that happen.

We retire characters when another character can do what they can but better.

Ah, yes, I totally forgot about that scene where GMK Ghidorah was a cyborg with a huge capture cable system that comes out of his chest.

GMK Ghidorah does a lot more with the Guardian role. It also completes the Yamato Guardian trio (The ones that matter anyway).

So we're replacing "capture cyborg from the future" with "another Ghidorah, just smaller and not-evil." Got it. They're literally nothing alike aside from being not villains. I'm not even complaining about adding GMK Ghidorah to the roster, but retiring Mecha-King Ghidorah because of it is ridiculous.

With Frankenstein we have Sanda and Gaira who are literally his two halves (his human and monster side) of his character. And the Titans do the human element better and have a better regeneration.

Yeah, because why retain Toho's take on one of the most iconic characters/monsters in all of fiction when we could just turn the KWC into Anime Smash Bros?

Grand and MV have enough difference between them

Ancient rival of the titular hero kaiju. Pure Evil with-a-capital-E. Lightning bolts from the wings. Controls lesser beings. Dwarfs the hero kaiju in size. Extraterrestrial.

Which one am I talking about?

(Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should get rid of either one of them, but come on. If you consider Mecha-King Ghidorah and GMK Ghidorah too similar, then Grand Ghidorah and MonsterVerse Ghidorah are basically just alternate skins of the same character.)

Do you people think we just retire monsters on a whim?

Considering the KWC Awards just announced the next retirees (C-Rex, Frankenstein, and Showa Baragon) and absolutely nothing was said about Mecha-King Ghidorah and then now all of a sudden Mecha-King Ghidorah is getting retired... I mean, yeah, kinda?

And, there’s always gonna be fans of MKG? Well they aren’t writing matches, that’s for skreeonking certain. And they haven’t been for a long skreeonking time.

Here's an idea: Instead of noticing that a monster hasn't gotten any matches in a while and going "Well! They're retired, then," how about letting people know about it? I've never seen a post where anyone has said anything like "Hey, guys, So-and-So hasn't gotten a match in a while. Would you care if they got retired?" Maybe if a monster is lacking in matches we could do something fun like a So-and-So themed month where people could write some matches for them and give people a chance to rescue and renew interest in the character, instead of keeping their match-status a secret and then surprising everyone with yet another retirement announcement.

Also, Mecha-King Ghidorah has had a match more recently than GMK Anguirus, Gryphon, Dagahra, the MUTOs, Orga, Destoroyah, Zilla, Iris, Biollante, and Zandora. Surely they're in bad need of some matches as well, or else we would've seen them more recently than their current final matches. Are we going to be retiring them, too?

For me, I think the following are pretty unanimous that we'll never bring back:
-Godzillasaurus

*grumble, grumble*

[Kiryu2012]

To be perfectly honest, I'll take KWCE over KWC anytime for reasons like this.

[Greyshot151]

Hey Everyone,

I think plenty has been said already, but to quickly summarize my thoughts, I'm actually the one who proposed the switch. I don't hate MKG nor do I prefer GMK, but I think there are plenty of new, exciting possibilities with GMK Ghidorah's inclusion. MKG seemed the logical choice and have no fear, he will not be "retired" for a while (Early to mid 2022?). As to why he wasn't announced with the survey, we were discussing GMK's inclusion for months and only recently concluded on the proper course of action. For a little behind the scenes, we have every KWC through 2021 already planned, with ideas of our releases for 2022.

Will MKG remain retired after he bites the bullet? Considering Heisei Ghidorah returned at one point, anything is possible, but he does have less special things then people think. Any monster, attached to the KIDS, can travel time and while in theory he has plenty of unique traits, for most of his time in the KWC, he's a tool of the Futurians with no personality of his own.

I completely understand people's disappointment on his eventual departure, but there IS a cost to adding monsters. We have a roster of 90+ characters, and while I can technically add EVERY incarnation for every monster, the more we add, the less focus gets placed on other combatants, or in GMK's case, less monsters other than Ghidorah.

[Moth]

If he's going to be brought back eventually, what's the point of retiring in the first place? We had people uncertain about retiring C-Rex, and now we're here retiring a very unique member of the roster.

"Oh but his fans aren't writing matches with him!"

That's a dumb excuse, as what's been said, we've had monsters go longer without a match and they weren't brought up for retirement.

There's a difference between retirements for the case of redundancy (Heisei Mothra, Showa Baragon, that like), and what feels like retiring for a "slot", especially after claiming there's no more slots in the KWC for monster incarnations, AND just slapped in another Godzilla. The people complaining about the retirement aren't complaining about the addition of Millennium KG, they're upset a very unique monster, both story and power wise is getting the axe for almost no reason.

Since we're on the topic of retirement, when are we giving Heisei MechaG the axe for the MV one?

Spoiler:

I am not opposed to the KWC becoming Anime Slash Bros, give me Eva-01. That'd fill the "cyborg mecha that defends humanity" hole MKG would leave.

I had one last point to bring up but I forgot it. I feel like there's enough space to have the two Ghidorahs on this roster. I just feel like this is an odd retirement to do after current events. But if I had to pick one, I'd go with Millenium, we still have a Heisei Ghidorah anyway (Grand).

This was a tough call to make to y'all probably, but ultimately new blood should enter the roster.

[Mac Daddy MM]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around *WHY* we need to retire monsters at all. It's not like anybody is spending money on certain characters and paying a monthly bill for them. *Upgrading* a character is one thing, like Showa Baragon into GMK Baragon that can do everything Showa can and then some, but there is legit nobody else in the KWC that has the type of capture cable system and mechanical time travel stuff that MKG brings to the table. I'm all for bringing in GMK Ghidorah, but at the cost of MKG? That's f'n stupid. That means the closest thing we got to a heroic cyborg is Kiryu, and even then, his organics aren't even visible.

[Gigantis]

.Why are you allowing both Kumasogami and Obsidius on the roster, then? They're both lava monsters, better get rid of one of them.

Can Obsidius' hands become weapons of all shapes and sizes? Can Kumasogami abosrb a monster's energy and be a bit more ambigious on his morals and where he stands? No? Didn't think so.

And if these monsters really do have "fans who love reading about them!!".. well okay i buy that, but in that case, why haven't they started writing with them to actually, y'know, save them from retirement?

[TitanoGoji16]

but he does have less special things then people think.

- He's a heroic/defender Ghidorah.
- He's the only robot/mech/armored Ghidorah. Also a zombie/undead Ghidorah, if you think about it.
- He comes from the future.
- His entire combat system is based around neutralizing and relocating his opponent instead of outright killing them.
- Do you really want to live in a world where you can't use the Machine Hand in a match anymore?

That's more special things than most kaiju have going for them.

Any monster, attached to the KIDS, can travel time

And if any monster had Garuda attached to them, they'd be "Super [Monster's name]," too. So what? People keep talking about KIDS being responsible for Mecha-King Ghidorah's time travel but like... has that ever been a thing? I mean I know KIDS can send things back and forth in time, but has Mecha-King Ghidorah ever been portrayed as having time travel powers or something, to the point where people keep saying "Don't worry, we can still use KIDS!" like KIDS was the only reason we had Mecha-King Ghidorah on the roster? Because... that's not how that works. I know he came from the future but I've never personally looked at Mecha-King Ghidorah as "the time travel monster." He arrived from the future and then was just here in the present until he died. Were people using KIDS for some badass time travel teleporting in their matches or something?

for most of his time in the KWC, he's a tool of the Futurians with no personality of his own.

I... what? Of course he's a tool of his masters and doesn't have a personality. He's a mech. This is like giving "He's always a tool of the Black Hole apes and has no personality!" as a reason we should get rid of Showa Mechagodzilla. The only mech on the roster this doesn't apply to is Jet Jaguar!

there IS a cost to adding monsters.

Which is...?

We have a roster of 90+ characters, and while I can technically add EVERY incarnation for every monster, the more we add, the less focus gets placed on other combatants, or in GMK's case, less monsters other than Ghidorah.

We could have a roster of literally three monsters - three Godzillas, even - and it is an inevitability that one of them would get less focus and attention than the other two. That's just how these things work. No matter if it's something like the KWC or a movie or a TV show or a video game, there are the handful of characters that get all the love, and then there are... the others. But just because the others aren't the star(s) of the show doesn't mean you get rid of them.

Besides... We go 50, maybe even 100 matches without seeing Anguirus, or Rodan, or whoever? All that means is it's a nice surprise when they finally show back up. "Hey, it's Anguirus/Rodan! It's been ages since they've had a match. Good to see them again."

I am not opposed to the KWC becoming Anime Slash Bros

I wouldn't be opposed to it either if it wasn't at the expense of actual Toho monsters, who should most certainly get priority over guest distributed kaiju. This site IS called Toho Kingdom, after all. I mean, I love me some Gamera and I can't imagine the KWC without him, but if it was a matter of having Gamera or Godzilla on the roster, that turtle would have to go.

Can Obsidius' hands become weapons of all shapes and sizes? Can Kumasogami abosrb a monster's energy and be a bit more ambigious on his morals and where he stands? No? Didn't think so.

Is GMK Ghidorah a corpse reanimated and retrofitted with technology from hundreds of years in the future? Can GMK Ghidorah unleash a giant mechanical clamp and capture system from his torso? Is GMK Ghidorah the weapon of a lone woman trying desperately to save her homeland from her former terrorist allies? No? Didn't think so.

And if these monsters really do have "fans who love reading about them!!".. well okay i buy that, but in that case, why haven't they started writing with them to actually, y'know, save them from retirement?

First we would need to be informed that the monster is in danger of being retired, which never seems to happen for some reason.

...

Alright, listen up, people. You want three "normal" Ghidorahs (not including Des and Monster X/Keizer) who are truly unique from one another? Once again, I wouldn't get rid of anyone and simply make GMK Ghidorah an addition instead of a replacement, but if you really HAVE to cut a Ghidorah from the roster? Get rid of Grand King Ghidorah. I know, I know, it would be sad to see him go. I'd miss him as much as everyone else. But be objective and actually think about it for a moment. Grand Ghidorah has been on the roster for a very long time by now and MonsterVerse Ghidorah is the new hotness and they basically have the same powers anyway. So, with that cut made, you now have:

- King Ghidorah (MonsterVerse): Traditional evil world-destroying alien and ultimate foe to Godzilla.
- King Ghidorah (2001): Heroic underdog earthborn supernatural mystic deity. Part of a team.
- Mecha-King Ghidorah: Piloted zombie cyborg from the future designed to capture and relocate, not terminate.

There. Three Ghidorahs, all perfectly unique from each other in character, powers, origins, and motives. Again, I'm not saying I want Grand Ghidorah, or anyone, retired, but if you insist on retiring someone to make room for GMK Ghidorah, Grand King Ghidorah is clearly the choice that makes the most sense.

[MoarCrossovers]

Why the fuck are people saying that MKG has to be the heroic Ghidorah when he more easily works as the "neutral" incarnation of the character, in the same vein as Heisei Godzilla.

[Gigantis]

We've had situations where its been said the monster was in danger of retiring before anyway. Frankenstein was literally hinted at becoming a retired monster before Diagoro and Goliath retired.

EDIT: Speaking of retirees, if we are gonna be bringing back some of them, i say bring in Spyler and Wargilgar. I know they're not too popular with readers, but they have some really good potential still.

[ShinGojira14]

So... ... ...I take it this particular retirement is gonna be pretty controversial and divisive?

[godjacob]

Why the skreeonk are people saying that MKG has to be the heroic Ghidorah when he more easily works as the "neutral" incarnation of the character, in the same vein as Heisei Godzilla.

Cause MKG's main pilot is Emi, a heroic character, and it was a weapon made to protect people from Godzilla's destructive charge through Japan. It falls in a similar vein of other superweapons built to protect humanity (MOGUERA, Heisei Mechagodzilla etc.)

Yes you could make it a villain, but that applies to any Kaiju. You can flip roles easily no matter how good or evil one side is (We are literally doing a Monster X turned good arc to display this). Doesn't make it inherently neutral.

[MoarCrossovers]

But Mecha-King Ghidorah has been portrayed as a villain in canon - twice!

[Nagoda]

Cause MKG's main pilot is Emi, a heroic character, and it was a weapon made to protect people from Godzilla's destructive charge through Japan. It falls in a similar vein of other superweapons built to protect humanity (MOGUERA, Heisei Mechagodzilla etc.)

Yes you could make it a villain, but that applies to any Kaiju. You can flip roles easily no matter how good or evil one side is (We are literally doing a Monster X turned good arc to display this). Doesn't make it inherently neutral.

Since we have the Trilopods, we also had access to the Cryog version of Mecha King Ghidorah where he’s still evil, so that also balances it out with one interpretation good and one evil, leaving us a neutral Ghidorah who can serve either purpose. You could also say GMK Ghidorah could do the same with good guardian monster and evil monster pre-guardian like with how we are doing Baragon Millenium. Also, I was on the side of keeping MKG on the roster. I don’t like getting rid of him, but it is what it is. Hopefully we unretire him in the future and get to keep both. And by the way, MKG was never a zombie or dead, he was still alive by the time they made him a cyborg.

[Moth]

But Mecha-King Ghidorah has been portrayed as a villain in canon - twice!

He was fighting the more "villainous" Heisei Godzilla, it's arguable that MKG was the 'hero' in his fight against Godzilla.

[MoarCrossovers]

People, you're forgetting that MKG appeared in more than just GvKG. He has major roles in both Godzilla Island and Godzilla: Rulers of Earth, both of which were pretty clear on the character's status as a villain. You can't say, "Well they don't count" when we're using abilities from the former show for Mecha-King Ghidorah.

In fact, the presence of both removes the limitation of how he can be used: either as a reconstructed mutation of a future lifeform, or as a modified alien entity. You can portray MKG as a space monster! That opens up so many opportunities for stories, especially if you choose to mix up the motivations of the two origins. A fallen destroyer of worlds resurrected to protect the very planets he once plundered. A failed weapon from the future harnessed to dominate the present.

If you are viewing MKG as just the "heroic" Ghidorah, then it's no wonder why he's being retired.

[Moth]

Wouldn't the fact MKG has more material to base how he's written off of make him more interesting to use than Millennium King Ghidorah, who has only appeared in GMK (and if you want to be technical, the IDW ongoing I recall?). But it's hard to blame people for thinking of him as mainly a "heroic" Ghidorah when that's one of the things that has him stand out from the others in the roster.