DC Cinematic Universe

[eabaker]

I think you are underestimating the iconic significance of the "Clark Kent" half of the Superman equation.

[miguelnuva]

I think you are underestimating the iconic significance of the "Clark Kent" half of the Superman equation.

Clark Kent is very iconic but I don't think he is as important as Superman when bringing in fans.

As mentioned several times before, Spiderman is the most popular superhero in the would even beating out Batman and Spiderman, when Peter Parker took a back seat Miles was able to stand on his own and become popular in his own right.

Into the Spidsr verse which was a Miles Morales movie was able to do wonders at the box office. With the right writing team Superman would get people in the door and then its up to the writers to tell the stroy.

If Clark's race is changed than at what point are we changing an iconic characters to a new character anyway.

[eabaker]

If Clark's race is changed than at what point are we changing an iconic characters to a new character anyway.

That question itself seems like a really good reason to try the change and see what happens! We can hypothesize all day, but you can't see the results until you've done the experiment.

[Vakanai]

Simply exploring the ways in which being black would or would not alter the course and meaning of Clark Kent's journey is reason enough for a storyteller to want to examine the character through that lens.

But it's not reason enough to make us wish he'd have used an existing poc hero instead. And I don't think anyone's arguing that he shouldn't make a black Clark, just that we wish he wouldn't. We're not saying he should have made a Calvin Ellis movie instead, only that we wish he had.

That said, it's a bit moot - it's not that a storyteller wanted to explore all this with a black Clark - remember, no one pitched black Clark to WB, for some reason WB wanted a black Clark Kent and then searched for someone to do it. It was an executive decision, not a creative one.

Added in 3 minutes 19 seconds:

Also, putting aside all issues of theory and theme, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread: because most of the potential audience has never heard of those other characters, and thus it would be more difficult to market the product to them.

In a world where the MCU can make stars of the Guardians of the Galaxy, and the DCEU can make Aquaman a billion dollar franchise, and The Suicide Squad is getting good reviews, this last argument is no longer an acceptable reason to not adapt such characters.

Added in 16 minutes 25 seconds:

If Clark's race is changed than at what point are we changing an iconic characters to a new character anyway.

That question itself seems like a really good reason to try the change and see what happens! We can hypothesize all day, but you can't see the results until you've done the experiment.

We can also hypothesize all day and not know the results on if Calvin Ellis will sell unless we do the experiment. Sadly, while it's the experiment I want, it's not the experiment we're getting. Not all experiments end in good results, and not all questions are a good reason to try the change and see what happens. When more people are asking "why?" and thinking it's a bad idea than responding with enthusiasm like you are, more often than not the majority had it right. Yes, there are exceptions, yes sometimes the "bad" idea makes good. But more reliably the mistakes get called out pretty accurately. For every Heath Ledger as Joker surprise there's a Halle Berry Catwoman, Ryan Reynolds Green Lantern, Eisenberg Lex, Leto Joker (I know the part hasn't been casted, I just picked actors/roles because I had an easier time recalling the fan comments prior than say the times fans called a film's success or not - but there's examples of those too - point is the fanbase is pretty reliable on calling out the clunkers early on).

[Major sssspielberg!]

Alright, did anyone check out The Suicide Squad? I don't know what really counts as a spoiler, but I have a few thoughts.

Spoiler:

Screw them for killing Captain Boomerang. Jai Courtney found a role he could actually play well and they just wiped him off for shock value. It was painfully obvious who was going to live and who was going to die. Shock value failed.

I'm 99.9 percent sure James Gunn has been binging 70s Ultra, based on the scene where not-Deadshot was shooting Starro with his gun.

Speaking of Starro, I'm pretty sure his roars were a heavily mixed Varan/Baragon roar!

Overall I don't have much to say about TSS. I didn't hate it. It kinda just felt like Deadpool + Guardians of the Galaxy × DC characters = yet another fucking movie about "super" people in tactical clothes killing hordes of bad guys.
I also haven't decided if I loved or hated the cinematography, and the weird color saturation. It's kinda ugly and appealing at the same time.
I do think this is the best Harley Quinn has been in the DCEU so far.

[Maritonic]

The Suicide Squad was the best "DCEU" movie by a longshot.

[Major sssspielberg!]

The Suicide Squad was the best "DCEU" movie by a longshot.

I wanna say I liked Shazam better, but that would probably require me to watch Shazam again, which I won't be doing
You're probably right to be honest.

[Noble Saber]

It's fo sho the best DC movie since The Dark Knight. Watched it last night in theaters and loved every second of it.

[Vakanai]

yet another skreeonking movie about "super" people in tactical clothes killing hordes of bad guys.

Harley, Rat Catcher 2, Polka Dot Man, King Shark some I forget off the top of my head, didn't really wear tactical clothes (Harley did wear combat boots I guess). The tactical clothing was more the guys with guns - Bloodsport, Flagg, Peacemaker kind of. The costumes were fairly more colorful than the first movie.

Added in 4 minutes 23 seconds:

The Suicide Squad was the best "DCEU" movie by a longshot.

I don't know, kind of depends more along the line of what you want from these films maybe. It's up there with Wonder Woman and Shazam for me. It's definitely one of the best of the DCEU if not the outright best at any rate.

I'm the weird one I guess who thinks Birds of Prey was the most fun.

Added in 12 minutes 58 seconds:

It's fo sho the best DC movie since The Dark Knight. Watched it last night in theaters and loved every second of it.

I'd say Joker is the best DC movie since The Dark Knight, but TSS is head and shoulders above most DCEU films. It was violent fun. I loved the scene with

Spoiler:

the first team on the beach getting slaughtered on the beach

and

Spoiler:

Harley's escape, wow.

It was a lot of fun and a lot of violence in the best way. I'm a fan of these gorey yet comedic uber violent action scenes - Kick-Ass, Super, Deadpool 1 & 2, now this. And I gotta admit, they made Starro of all characters the best DCEU villain to date. And

Spoiler:

Peacemaker's heel turn? He killed Flagg!

Did not see that coming. And followed up by that after credits scene? Definitely makes me interested in that HBO Max Peacemaker series to see how they follow up on that.

[Chrispy_G]

Okay. The Suicide Squad. I liked the first 30 minutes of it, then it just started to fall off a cliff...right around the time the main team met up with Fla and the Freedom Fighters....almost everything after that felt like it just kept devolving. Mild/vague spoilers abound I suppose.

I felt like it was very obvious who would die and who would live the entire time...at no point in the film did a character I labeled as 'safe' die or a character I expected to get nixed survive.

I found it odd that Harley Quinn was basically sectioned off for most of the movie. Almost all of her sub-plot could have been cut with little consequence to the film at large. I wonder if there was a point where they were unsure of bringing her back or of Robbie returning, so they had it written in a way where her character was conveniently away from the 'main group' for almost the entire film...and thus free to be easily edited down/removed from the film?

Also...I know Hollywood is obsessed with the 'lets make sure we don't have a damsel in distress scenario' trope. Like, female gets captured, and then rescues herself before the "men" rescue her. The Force Awakens did it with Rey, and now The Suicide Squad has done it with Harley Quinn...and I'm sure I've seen it a few times in other places. It is just sort of repetitive at this point. We get it Hollywood, women can NEVER be rescued by men from imprisonment, they are strong enough to save themselves.

Overall I just found the whole thing odd and I typically like Gunn's brand and style. It was just...kinda lame. It was just nothing to write home about. I think that Guardians/Deadpool brand of off-kilter, meta, under-cutting superhero comedy has pretty much ran its course and it just isn't clicking any more. Heck, Guardians 2 and Deadpool 2 already showed those templates were not evergreen. Heck, the superhero genre as a whole has clearly reached its zenith and is in the process of slow decline.

I am not surprised that it isn't performing well at the Box Office. I'm a theater manager and the numbers TSS pulled Friday and Saturday were quite a bit lower than what Jungle Cruise pulled for us last Friday and Saturday....and Jungle Cruise ended up with a $35M opening. I would be quite surprised if The Suicide Squad comes in at or over $30M

Super remains James Gunn's best film.

Now lets focus up and release the Ayer Cut of the 2016 film.

[Vakanai]

Overall I just found the whole thing odd and I typically like Gunn's brand and style. It was just...kinda lame. It was just nothing to write home about. I think that Guardians/Deadpool brand of off-kilter, meta, under-cutting superhero comedy has pretty much ran its course and it just isn't clicking any more. Heck, Guardians 2 and Deadpool 2 already showed those templates were not evergreen.

Disagree - I think some of it might be that it isn't clicking with you anymore, and partially just variability. No director is consistent across their filmography, even in the same genre. I agree that Deadpool 2 wasn't as good as 1, that doesn't mean that brand of comedy stopped working, it just means Deadpool wasn't as good (this is the inconsistent director output film variability) while I disagree on GotG 2, I thought it was the much better movie compared to the overhyped first one that doesn't replay well and has odd pacing (personal opinion differences). So I think it's too early to state that this style has actually run it's course versus personal tastes changing or just normal hit and miss filmmaking in general.

Heck, the superhero genre as a whole has clearly reached its zenith and is in the process of slow decline.

Also somewhat debateable, depending on your definition of zenith. In terms of quality, for the longest time I thought the zenith was between 2008-2010 with Iron Man, The Dark Knight, Defendor, Super, and Kick-Ass. But we've still had some seriously high quality movies since then (Deadpool, Logan, Joker, Into the Spider-Verse), just more infrequently and more spread out. In terms of pop culture though, the zenith would have to be distilled to just two movies with Infinity War and Endgame. But that was just a few years ago in 2018 and 2019, so it's really hard to make that claim so soon, especially with a pandemic really hampering these films, with most of last year having had films delayed to this year, and much of this year having people hesitant to go to theaters plus the advent of same day and date streaming releases of these films as a covid response. We can't say when (assuming if) things get back to normal we all won't be packing into the theaters when the next phase of the MCU takes better shape. Nor any telling what the response of a return to TDK-esque style film in The Batman will have. Considering these films were still making a billion dollars pre-pandemic, we'd have to at least see how they do post-pandemic before we can safely speculate - and we're not even close to post-pandemic unless more people get vaccinated.

Super remains James Gunn's best film.

This though I 100% am in complete agreement with.

[Terasawa]

Also...I know Hollywood is obsessed with the 'lets make sure we don't have a damsel in distress scenario' trope. Like, female gets captured, and then rescues herself before the "men" rescue her. The Force Awakens did it with Rey, and now The Suicide Squad has done it with Harley Quinn...and I'm sure I've seen it a few times in other places. It is just sort of repetitive at this point. We get it Hollywood, women can NEVER be rescued by men from imprisonment, they are strong enough to save themselves.

I'll take "sort of repetitive" (especially when eschewing gender stereotypes) over another damsel-rescued-by-male-hero example.

[Spirit Ghidorah 2010]

Also...I know Hollywood is obsessed with the 'lets make sure we don't have a damsel in distress scenario' trope. Like, female gets captured, and then rescues herself before the "men" rescue her. The Force Awakens did it with Rey, and now The Suicide Squad has done it with Harley Quinn...and I'm sure I've seen it a few times in other places. It is just sort of repetitive at this point. We get it Hollywood, women can NEVER be rescued by men from imprisonment, they are strong enough to save themselves.

I'll take "sort of repetitive" (especially when eschewing gender stereotypes) over another damsel-rescued-by-male-hero example.

I love that "obsessed" is the same as "twice or a few times" and "sort of repetitive".

I guess washing my hands more than twice a day makes me obsessive-compulsive.

[Terasawa]

I love that "obsessed" is the same as "twice or a few times" and "sort of repetitive".

I guess washing my hands more than twice a day makes me obsessive-compulsive.

Actually, if you want to be consistent with Hollywood's obsessiveness in this case, you'd have to wash your hands more than twice in the span of six years.

[SoggyNoodles2016]

I found it odd that Harley Quinn was basically sectioned off for most of the movie. Almost all of her sub-plot could have been cut with little consequence to the film at large. I wonder if there was a point where they were unsure of bringing her back or of Robbie returning, so they had it written in a way where her character was conveniently away from the 'main group' for almost the entire film...and thus free to be easily edited down/removed from the film?

Tbh, I thought this made a lot of sense. You get to give Harley time to shine AND make sure she doesn't overshadow the new squad. Win-win in my book, especially after Bird of Prey, as much as I loved it, really made it a Harley movie with the BOP hanging in the background.

I wouldn't worry about the money. It's rated R and things are getting worse again. As long as it's big on HBO Max, it will be a success.

Also, loved this. Violence kind of shocked me (more in it was somehow more then I expected) but it was great. Starro was an incredible horrific and tragic villian (James Gunn kaiju movie when?) and I got misty eyed at the ending with Ratcatcher remembering her father.

[LegendZilla]

I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.

[Gigantis]

I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.

Ehh not really. I say wait to see how it does on HBO Max before judging, because that will probably be where it's success hail's from.

[miguelnuva]

I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.

No it was due to the Delta Variant.

[LegendZilla]

I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.

No it was due to the Delta Variant.

Soon enough, there will be an Epsilon Variant.

[Voyager]

I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.

No it was due to the Delta Variant.

Soon enough, there will be an Epsilon Variant.

What do you mean “there will be” an Epsilon variant? There is one, and it’s been around for a while now. And even in the context of the conversation it doesn’t make sense.