All I’m saying is that new variants of COVID will pop up again and again until there’s one that will take us all back to square one.Voyager wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:54 pmWhat do you mean “there will be” an Epsilon variant? There is one, and it’s been around for a while now. And even in the context of the conversation it doesn’t make sense.
DC Cinematic Universe
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Which is why just the week before Jungle Cruise made $35M...which is why even heading INTO the weekend places like Deadline were saying $30+M.miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:32 pmNo it was due to the Delta Variant.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:58 pm I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.
I like how before it came out, nobody was calling or expecting a weak performance...yet now that it under-performed, out comes the "Oh well not a surprise at all"
Yes...there are plenty of contributing factors, but some big ones that people want ignore almost completely are that 'yes the genre peaked with Endgame and is on the decline' and 'people were not as in love with or hyped about this movie as some expected'
According to Samba, The Suicide Squad had a weaker performance on HBOmax than Mortal Kombat...which really shouldn't have happened if all factors were considered. TSS should have been much bigger in theaters and on streaming.
All genres go through stages - The nascent stage where they are developing, you have hits and codifiers but they are not constant enough and consistently good enough for the genre to be fully solidified. When Batman and Superman were the only big hit superhero movies being made, and half of them were disappointments...that's not 'a genre'
Blade, X-Men, and Spider-Man were the 3-step launching pad of the modern era that blossomed but still had hit-or-miss quality. For every Batman Begins you had a Catwoman, for every X2 you had an Elektra.
2008 - Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Hancock, Hellboy II and The Dark Knight in a single summer. Hancock had bad reviews but good Box Office turnout, Hellboy II had very good reviews and reception but lesser BO turnout..The Incredible Hulk was a bit of both. Iron Man and The Dark Knight were praised and were both massive Box Office hits.
Hollywood doesn't respond overnight. If a hit movie comes out in 2008, the fruits of that labor aren't seen 6 months later...but by 2010, Iron Man 2 was out, and an entire slate leading up to The Avengers was already on the books and getting made, as well as the conclusion to the Dark Knight trilogy, as was the 'darker reboot' of Spider-Man with TASM.
The Golden Age was very much 2010-2019. The entire main run of the MCU, all of the various reboot and cinematic universe attempts happening around it from X-Men and DC, as well as the sort of 'deconstruction' stage including films like Logan and a masterpiece like Joker which did about the bare minimum to be qualified as a 'superhero movie' or 'comic book movie'
Sure, yes, the lockdowns and shutdowns all hit at a very convenient time...but it is more like correlation instead of causation.
If the film that happened to be delayed so much was...Endgame and not Black Widow....you would have had a theater-only release, an opening far greater than $80M and a 2nd weekend that wasn't a complete collapse. It wasn't like people were fearless for weekend 1 and all of a sudden terrified of Delta in weekend 2.
Avengers: Edngame managed to briefly become the highest grossing film of all time. A superhero movie will never come close to that level of cultural impact again.
The A-List characters will always transcend the genre. A Spider-Man, Batman, or Superman movie CAN always work and CAN always be a hit. Far From Home will probably do very well for itself especially considering all of the wild cross-over multiverse hype it has installed into it.
But we saw Black Widow open nicely and collapse, The Suicide Squad didn't even open nicely(Remember, Birds of Prey, another R rated film with Harly Quinn, didn't exactly perform THAT much better in a pre-shutdown world).....and buckle up because when Shang-Chi comes out, all of the headlines are going to be about how it had 'the biggest labor day opening weekend of all time, regardless of the pandemic!'....forgetting the fact that September is always the least attended month of the year and that virtually no big movie release is ever attempted on Labor Day weekend.
So Shang-Chi will have a weak performance, and Eternals will have a weak performance. Venom 2 won't be anything compared to the first. Then Spider-Man will come out, and be a hit because it is Spider-Man, at Christmas, and a big crossover event...and people will declare the genre still just as healthy as ever.
Any and all "less than desirable" results at the Box Office will be deflected to the pandemic until everyone comes to the slow realization that superhero movies just don't sell the way they used to.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Shang-chi and the Eternals face an uphill battle just because they're so completely obscure. I've been a superhero fan since 2004 and I'd never heard of either before the movies were announced. GotG was in the same boat, but it caught lightning in a bottle. There's no guarantee that will happen again.
So if they do underperform, it really shouldn't be taken as a sign that the genre is fading. Once the Avengers are relaunched with a new roster and GotG3 finally comes along, I think it's safe to say things will pick back up. Probably not to Infinity War levels, but still.
So if they do underperform, it really shouldn't be taken as a sign that the genre is fading. Once the Avengers are relaunched with a new roster and GotG3 finally comes along, I think it's safe to say things will pick back up. Probably not to Infinity War levels, but still.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Every comic movie is going to be down if you consider Endgame a high point. It will be mid 2030 untill Marvel can build back up to that.
This was also a DC film and they are fighting a civil war right now in their fandom.
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I'm curious to see what Spider-Man and Venom do of they aren't pushed back.
This was also a DC film and they are fighting a civil war right now in their fandom.
Added in 2 minutes 4 seconds:
I'm curious to see what Spider-Man and Venom do of they aren't pushed back.
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The way a large swath of people at least here in the US both want to not get vaccinated and not mask up and not shut down (I know that's one more than a "both" but there's not a "throth" to use okay?) it wouldn't surprise me if we get an Omega variant...LegendZilla wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:49 pmSoon enough, there will be an Epsilon Variant.miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 5:32 pmNo it was due to the Delta Variant.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:58 pm I think the fact that The Suicide Squad tanked so badly is a sign that comic superhero films may be on the decline.
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I figured there was an Epsilon variant since there's already a Lambda one, but I don't know my Greek alphabet so didn't want to call it out.Voyager wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:54 pmWhat do you mean “there will be” an Epsilon variant? There is one, and it’s been around for a while now. And even in the context of the conversation it doesn’t make sense.
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While I disagree with the notion that superhero films have peaked and are on their way out (the old "superhero fatigue" argument I kid you not I first read in 2003) I'm not interested in debating that point, I'm sure others will. But this is just shocking - why on earth would anyone ever think for a moment TSS should've been much bigger than Mortal Kombat? Really? The quasi-sequel-reboot of the much disliked and critically panned Suicide Squad, from the very hit or miss DCEU (I love them, but quality is inconsistent from film to film), lacking any notable super star power or A-list characters (outside maybe Harley), was supposed to do better than a film from one of the biggest videogame franchise's on earth because...? Look, underperfoming from grounded expectations is one thing, but trying to say it should've done better than a wildly insanely popular IP like MK is just weird.
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Don't forget The Batman next year, I expect that'll be pretty huge.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:37 pm Shang-chi and the Eternals face an uphill battle just because they're so completely obscure. I've been a superhero fan since 2004 and I'd never heard of either before the movies were announced. GotG was in the same boat, but it caught lightning in a bottle. There's no guarantee that will happen again.
So if they do underperform, it really shouldn't be taken as a sign that the genre is fading. Once the Avengers are relaunched with a new roster and GotG3 finally comes along, I think it's safe to say things will pick back up. Probably not to Infinity War levels, but still.
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Civil war? What between the restore the Snyder-verse folks and everyone else?miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:21 pm Every comic movie is going to be down if you consider Endgame a high point. It will be mid 2030 untill Marvel can build back up to that.
This was also a DC film and they are fighting a civil war right now in their fandom.
Added in 2 minutes 4 seconds:
I'm curious to see what Spider-Man and Venom do of they aren't pushed back.
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- The Restore the Snyderverse fans
- The "every superhero needs to be a boyscout" groupies
- The "why aren't these heroes laughing, quipping and smiling while people are dying" fans
- The "I want my comic book movies translated 1/1 over to the films" fans
Although a few different arguments could be made that 3 out of 4 of these are the same group.
- The "every superhero needs to be a boyscout" groupies
- The "why aren't these heroes laughing, quipping and smiling while people are dying" fans
- The "I want my comic book movies translated 1/1 over to the films" fans
Although a few different arguments could be made that 3 out of 4 of these are the same group.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
It’s important to recognize that The Suicide Squad was a rated R gore fest-a great one at that, but it clearly couldn’t capitalize off of under 18 audiences the way the original, or other DC franchises could. On top of that, let’s admit that the film did not have a big hero, or star, like Superman or Batman, and lacked the Joker to supplement. That’s before we get into the Delta variant, and/or probably piracy and HBO Max contribute to a big mix-up. This really shouldn’t come as a big surprise to anyone else.
That being said, I really enjoyed The Suicide Squad. While it tanked, and I think it’ll discourage experimentation in the future, I appreciate that it did not have the standard super hero formula, and felt like it had personality and wit, in contrast to the recently released Black Widow (which also didn’t do so hot). One thing I appreciate about DC, which is a major point, is that some of their films, for better or worse, feel markedly different from one another and it’s clear there’s a real director behind them. Compare Joker, to The Suicide Squad, to Shazam. And yes, even the Snyder cut of JL. However, it’s frustrating to see variation, and then some people suddenly want to get rid of all that variation and put Snyder in charge and the likes.
That being said, I really enjoyed The Suicide Squad. While it tanked, and I think it’ll discourage experimentation in the future, I appreciate that it did not have the standard super hero formula, and felt like it had personality and wit, in contrast to the recently released Black Widow (which also didn’t do so hot). One thing I appreciate about DC, which is a major point, is that some of their films, for better or worse, feel markedly different from one another and it’s clear there’s a real director behind them. Compare Joker, to The Suicide Squad, to Shazam. And yes, even the Snyder cut of JL. However, it’s frustrating to see variation, and then some people suddenly want to get rid of all that variation and put Snyder in charge and the likes.
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The variation can remain, whilst keeping the overarching grandiose epic JL narrative under the same Pilot who's been doing different things with the genre since he came aboard.
One thing I don't get, is how critics claim Snyder is somehow this Macho Edgelord for teens, and he isn't by any stretch of the imagination. Yet, i've seen these same "critics" clamor over an R rated gorefest, with imo terrible humor, a disrespect for its characters (Looking at you Mongal and Boomer), and a seemingly large disdain for DC as a whole.
The tonal and editorial whiplash i felt during TSS was nuts.
I guess I just see DC as a franchise of Epic legends of old, just set during the modern day. So if somebody decides to make a slapstick film in its universe it just rubs off on me wrong.
I felt this way about Shazam, and now I'm hearing Taika Waititi will be next in the directing chair for the next DC film. So needless to say I'm not entirely happy about the future of DC.
With all this being said I am a huge fan of King Shark, Sebastian, Starro, and Ratcatcher 2.
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And am I the only one who preferred when Harley was a mentally disturbed, chaotic neutral character? Who often did the wrong thing on her or Joker's accord? When she was mentally abused by Joker? That dynamic hit incredibly hard for plenty of people I knew personally. That pure psychological warfare, knowing she's a tragically conflicted character, who just can't leave Joker. It was effective, and represented a character who skimmed the lines between reality and comic books.
Ever since N52 and DCEU they've been glorifying her characters derangement as some kinda quirky superpower, with her being a good person 9 times out of 10, yet they treat her like she's incredibly stupid. Which makes no sense considering she has her PHD. I don't understand the fan fascination with this revamp of the character who is all rainbows and sunshines, with a child-like whimsy, until she needs to shoot a bad guy because he's "bad".
One thing I don't get, is how critics claim Snyder is somehow this Macho Edgelord for teens, and he isn't by any stretch of the imagination. Yet, i've seen these same "critics" clamor over an R rated gorefest, with imo terrible humor, a disrespect for its characters (Looking at you Mongal and Boomer), and a seemingly large disdain for DC as a whole.
The tonal and editorial whiplash i felt during TSS was nuts.
I guess I just see DC as a franchise of Epic legends of old, just set during the modern day. So if somebody decides to make a slapstick film in its universe it just rubs off on me wrong.
I felt this way about Shazam, and now I'm hearing Taika Waititi will be next in the directing chair for the next DC film. So needless to say I'm not entirely happy about the future of DC.
With all this being said I am a huge fan of King Shark, Sebastian, Starro, and Ratcatcher 2.
Added in 2 hours 58 minutes 40 seconds:
And am I the only one who preferred when Harley was a mentally disturbed, chaotic neutral character? Who often did the wrong thing on her or Joker's accord? When she was mentally abused by Joker? That dynamic hit incredibly hard for plenty of people I knew personally. That pure psychological warfare, knowing she's a tragically conflicted character, who just can't leave Joker. It was effective, and represented a character who skimmed the lines between reality and comic books.
Ever since N52 and DCEU they've been glorifying her characters derangement as some kinda quirky superpower, with her being a good person 9 times out of 10, yet they treat her like she's incredibly stupid. Which makes no sense considering she has her PHD. I don't understand the fan fascination with this revamp of the character who is all rainbows and sunshines, with a child-like whimsy, until she needs to shoot a bad guy because he's "bad".
Last edited by _JNavs_ on Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:13 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
The Harley Quinn show version of Harley is my personal favorite version of Harley. Only thing that show is missing is if Deadpool somehow ended up on it._JNavs_ wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:03 pm The variation can remain, whilst keeping the overarching grandiose epic JL narrative under the same Pilot who's been doing different things with the genre since he came aboard.
One thing I don't get, is how critics claim Snyder is somehow this Macho Edgelord for teens, and he isn't by any stretch of the imagination. Yet, i've seen these same "critics" clamor over an R rated gorefest, with imo terrible humor, a disrespect for its characters (Looking at you Mongal and Boomer), and a seemingly large disdain for DC as a whole.
The tonal and editorial whiplash i felt during TSS was nuts.
I guess I just see DC as a franchise of Epic legends of old, just set during the modern day. So if somebody decides to make a slapstick film in its universe it just rubs off on me wrong.
I felt this way about Shazam, and now I'm hearing Taika Waititi will be next in the directing chair for the next DC film. So needless to say I'm not entirely happy about the future of DC.
With all this being said I am a huge fan of King Shark, Sebastian, Starro, and Ratcatcher 2.
Added in 2 hours 58 minutes 40 seconds:
And am I the only one who preferred when Harley was a mentally disturbed, chaotic neutral character? Who often did the wrong thing on her or Joker's accord? When she was mentally abused by Joker? That dynamic hit incredibly hard for plenty of people I knew personally. That pure psychological warfare, knowing she's a tragically conflicted character, who just can't leave Joker. It was effective, and represented a character who skimmed the lines between reality and comic books.
Ever since N52 and DCEU they've been glorifying her characters derangement as some kinda quirky superpower, with her being a good person 9 times out of 10, yet they treat her like she's incredibly stupid. Which makes no sense considering she has her PHD. I don't understand the fan fascination with this revamp of the character who is all rainbows and sunshines, with a child-like whimsy, until she needs to shoot a bad guy because he's "bad".
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
I have some thoughts re: the difference in critical response to the Snyder entries vs. TSS. A couple of things to get out first, though:
1.) I've only seen the first two Snyder entries in the series. I have not yet watched his cut of JL.
2.) I wasn't that big a fan of TSS. I liked it more than I like most DCEU movies, but it wasn't the top of the heap for me.
With those caveats out of the way...
The Suicide Squad is a pretty definitively unpretentious movie; it's only apparent aim is to entertain the viewer with comedy, action, goofy characters lovingly rendered, and comedically gory action. However, in order to make sure that all of those elements land, it (mostly) organically weaves in engaging characterizations and ethical dilemmas for the characters to confront (and the audience to mull over, should they be so inclined). It sets itself a very simple goal, and then it achieves more than just the minimum - it may not be an all-time great, but it gives people at least what they feel they paid their money for, if not a little bit more.
Snyder's entries, on the other hand, declare in big bold letters their intent to tell significant stories. They are grandiose and self-important. But they don't actually explore their issues with any kind of nuance; they are just wallpapered with the same basic, simplistic points, demonstrating all the subtlety of a teenager who's just discovered Ayn Rand. The characters are one-note mouthpieces for broad philosophical perspectives, with no sense of humanity or layered personality. In the end, these movies have given people less than what they feel they paid their money for.
1.) I've only seen the first two Snyder entries in the series. I have not yet watched his cut of JL.
2.) I wasn't that big a fan of TSS. I liked it more than I like most DCEU movies, but it wasn't the top of the heap for me.
With those caveats out of the way...
The Suicide Squad is a pretty definitively unpretentious movie; it's only apparent aim is to entertain the viewer with comedy, action, goofy characters lovingly rendered, and comedically gory action. However, in order to make sure that all of those elements land, it (mostly) organically weaves in engaging characterizations and ethical dilemmas for the characters to confront (and the audience to mull over, should they be so inclined). It sets itself a very simple goal, and then it achieves more than just the minimum - it may not be an all-time great, but it gives people at least what they feel they paid their money for, if not a little bit more.
Snyder's entries, on the other hand, declare in big bold letters their intent to tell significant stories. They are grandiose and self-important. But they don't actually explore their issues with any kind of nuance; they are just wallpapered with the same basic, simplistic points, demonstrating all the subtlety of a teenager who's just discovered Ayn Rand. The characters are one-note mouthpieces for broad philosophical perspectives, with no sense of humanity or layered personality. In the end, these movies have given people less than what they feel they paid their money for.
Last edited by eabaker on Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
I don't think we're supposed to take it as a sure thing that he is Thomas Wayne's son. Joker is very much a work of unreliable narration.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
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That's true. Regardless, I could've done without it. This isn't Spider-Man, where every villain needs a connection to the hero.eabaker wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:55 amI don't think we're supposed to take it as a sure thing that he is Thomas Wayne's son. Joker is very much a work of unreliable narration.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
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I appreciate your thoughts on this, though I have to disagree that the characters are one note mouthpieces for philosophical perspectives and lack any sense of humanity or layered personality. I think the perspectives work in tandem with one another, like Clark's mother and father in Man of Steel. They just want their son to live a normal life, to remain safe from harm, he really doesn't "owe this world a thing". This is what initially makes Clark "Superman", as he goes against his parents ideas for him. They're probably one of the most realistic families in the genre. Clark, as powerful as he is, has emotional weaknesses. We see it when his mother is about to be beaten by Zod, we see it every time Lois is in danger, that is his true kryptonite. He can move tectonic plates, move cruise ships across oceans, but if he can't save one person, he feels massive regret, and is met by mass scrutiny across the planet. Look at the pain alone from when he kills Zod, pure regret that he couldn't save everyone. He fights with potential anger issues as well, which we see when Lex shows him pictures of his abused mother, and he immediately is about to let loose his heat beams (which I totally wouldn't blame him for doing).eabaker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:31 pm I have some thoughts re: the difference in critical response to the Snyder entries vs. TSS. A couple of things to get out first, though:
1.) I've only seen the first two Snyder entries in the series. I have not yet watched his cut of JL.
2.) I wasn't that big a fan of TSS. I liked it more than I like most DCEU movies, but it wasn't the top of the heap for me.
With those caveats out of the way...
The Suicide Squad is a pretty definitively unpretentious movie; it's only apparent aim is to entertain the viewer with comedy, action, goofy characters lovingly rendered, and comedically gory action. However, in order to make sure that all of those elements land, it (mostly) organically weaves in engaging characterizations and ethical dilemmas for the characters to confront (and the audience to mull over, should they be so inclined). It sets itself a very simple goal, and then it achieves more than just the minimum - it may not be an all-time great, but it gives people at least what they feel they paid their money for, if not a little bit more.
Snyder's entries, on the other hand, declare in big bold letters their intent to tell significant stories. They are grandiose and self-important. But they don't actually explore their issues with any kind of nuance; they are just wallpapered with the same basic, simplistic points, demonstrating all the subtlety of a teenager who's just discovered Ayn Rand. The characters are one-note mouthpieces for broad philosophical perspectives, with no sense of humanity or layered personality. In the end, these movies have given people less than what they feel they paid their money for.
These are some heavy ideas being played with by Snyder, more so than we typically see from the genre in my opinion. Henry Cavill's Clark is one of the most layered superheroes in modern CBMs. He has to be exactly what everyone needs him to be, simultaneously, and perfectly, yet can't because it's an impossible feat. It begs the question, "How Super is the Superman?"
Look at Bruce Wayne in BvS, you can't get more human than being in sheer terror, that one of your towers, with respected friends inside, your employees, etc. have all just been reduced to essentially ash. This alone hits hard, now add the fact that you're *the* Batman, protector of the innocents, and you've just lost thousands of innocents, by impenetrable extraterrestrial beings who can fly. He barely saves a child who then tells him her mother was in that very building, it's soul crushing. We also see that he lost a Robin due to the Joker, so he's jaded, angry, mentally off the edge of no return. The difference between his character and the Batman from the comics, is when he looked into the abyss, he decided to jump in with a bungee cord and fight his demons. It might not be the right thing for "Bruce Wayne" to do, but it makes it that much sweeter when he's finally redeemed and finds the light via Superman again.
Lex Luthor as well, he was abused by his father, "there was no god to save me from daddy's fist", to the point of near pure mental break, potential schizophrenia, and borderline personality disorder. He despises religion, because religion could not save him. He says "If Man can't kill God, than the Devil will do it!", and when he releases the devil onto Superman, Lex is about to get killed by Doomsday's fist, and who saves him? Superman. So he's proven wrong repeatedly, across all his ideologies. It's very introspective imo.
I could go on and on about every character, but I know that'd grow tiresome. So I'll just say I would highly, highly, recommend checking out ZSJL as it's a completely different film than the 2017 version.
Added in 4 minutes 43 seconds:
As Eabaker said, it's very much an unreliable narrative. Although I have to say, Joker's most "definitive" origins are typically the ones where he's a good guy who has "One Bad Day". So I'd personally say it works perfectly as such.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
Last edited by _JNavs_ on Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
He's not Thomas Wayne's son, his mother lied about that, her boyfriend was abusing and molesting him and she let it happen.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
He's also not a hero at all. Your suppose to feel sorry for Arthur at first but then you see when he makes that switch to a guy that has gone too far.
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- Vakanai
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
We don't know his mother lied about that - at first we see the adoption paperwork, and we believe her story that it was all faked cause he was rich etc. is part of her delusion, but then we see the picture and the words written by Thomas on the back hinting that there really was a relationship after all, leaving us uncertain as to what is really true then.miguelnuva wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:35 pmHe's not Thomas Wayne's son, his mother lied about that, her boyfriend was abusing and molesting him and she let it happen.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
He's also not a hero at all. Your suppose to feel sorry for Arthur at first but then you see when he makes that switch to a guy that has gone too far.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Yep, that about says it all.eabaker wrote: ↑Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:31 pmSnyder's entries, on the other hand, declare in big bold letters their intent to tell significant stories. They are grandiose and self-important. But they don't actually explore their issues with any kind of nuance; they are just wallpapered with the same basic, simplistic points, demonstrating all the subtlety of a teenager who's just discovered Ayn Rand.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Penny isn't his Bio Mom, a relationship with Thomas wouldn't make him Arthur's dad anyway.Vakanai wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:59 pmWe don't know his mother lied about that - at first we see the adoption paperwork, and we believe her story that it was all faked cause he was rich etc. is part of her delusion, but then we see the picture and the words written by Thomas on the back hinting that there really was a relationship after all, leaving us uncertain as to what is really true then.miguelnuva wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:35 pmHe's not Thomas Wayne's son, his mother lied about that, her boyfriend was abusing and molesting him and she let it happen.JAGzilla wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:13 am After dragging my feet for two years, I finally sat down and watched Joker. It is a powerful, uncomfortable, disturbing film, very well done and deserving of its success. But I personally don't like it as a Joker origin story. It makes him relatable and sympathetic, and that's not how this character should be seen. He's a monster, not a hero of any kind. He loves what he is and does. Trying to make him Thomas Wayne's son is absurd and needless, too, although it worked well enough within the context of this particular story.
He's also not a hero at all. Your suppose to feel sorry for Arthur at first but then you see when he makes that switch to a guy that has gone too far.
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Re: DC Cinematic Universe
Did u miss my response lol
I just feel it's incredibly discrediting to him as a creator by tossing away all the meat of his characterizations to simplify his work. But again I believe nuance is in the eye of the beholder.
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Wait what makes you think she isn't his bio mom?miguelnuva wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:21 pmPenny isn't his Bio Mom, a relationship with Thomas wouldn't make him Arthur's dad anyway.Vakanai wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:59 pmWe don't know his mother lied about that - at first we see the adoption paperwork, and we believe her story that it was all faked cause he was rich etc. is part of her delusion, but then we see the picture and the words written by Thomas on the back hinting that there really was a relationship after all, leaving us uncertain as to what is really true then.miguelnuva wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:35 pm
He's not Thomas Wayne's son, his mother lied about that, her boyfriend was abusing and molesting him and she let it happen.
He's also not a hero at all. Your suppose to feel sorry for Arthur at first but then you see when he makes that switch to a guy that has gone too far.
Last edited by _JNavs_ on Fri Aug 13, 2021 1:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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