Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Legion1979]

^Disney's gonna be throwing a fit over flop after flop

......what?

[LegendZilla]

^Disney's gonna be throwing a fit over flop after flop

......what?

They've become so addicted to the MCU's success that they are gonna loose it if they have to use other IPs to make money instead.

[UltramanGoji]

^Disney's gonna be throwing a fit over flop after flop

Thor isn't flopping and it's moronic to think it is just because the critical reception (which is still mostly positive, all things considered) is more mixed this time around.

[Legion1979]

The only thing that's "flopped" for Disney recently is one film - Lightyear. One film, and suddenly the people who have been on the sidelines waiting for Disney to fail suddenly come out to proclaim that the company is on a downward spiral.

It's obnoxious.

[LegendZilla]

^Not that they don't deserve it. They've been dominating for too long if you ask me.

[CyberZilla]

The movies and shows for the MCU definitely feel weaker/less polished these days, and not just in shaky VFX. The stories feel like they need another pass to really gel together their elements, especially in the case of Mom and Love and Thunder, two movies that aren't bad (imo) but suffer from lack of polish to the script.

[Legion1979]

^Not that they don't deserve it. They've been dominating for too long if you ask me.

So....because they've been on top for so long, it's only natural to wish for their downfall?

Can we perhaps be a little more mature here?

[UltramanGoji]

The movies and shows for the MCU definitely feel weaker/less polished these days, and not just in shaky VFX. The stories feel like they need another pass to really gel together their elements, especially in the case of Mom and Love and Thunder, two movies that aren't bad (imo) but suffer from lack of polish to the script.

I really think the introduction of the Disney+ shows spiraled things out of control. They're spreading out the phases over so much media these days that stories are starting to be stretched absolutely thin. With just focusing on movies, things felt way more cohesive and tightly plotted. We'll see whether or not Phase 4 ultimately pans out in the long run but it's definitely a mess right now and I think the large amount of content compared to before is the primary reason.

[CyberZilla]

I really think the introduction of the Disney+ shows spiraled things out of control. They're spreading out the phases over so much media these days that stories are starting to be stretched absolutely thin. With just focusing on movies, things felt way more cohesive and tightly plotted. We'll see whether or not Phase 4 ultimately pans out in the long run but it's definitely a mess right now and I think the large amount of content compared to before is the primary reason.

Definitely think the shows contributed to it. What was once three movies became at least three movies and as many or more shows a year. I like superheroes, I like Marvel, and even I’m starting to feel a little queasy at all the content. I barely get to sit still with the stuff I like before a new show is airing or a new movie’s in theaters. I already thought three movies a year was pushing it, now the D+ model is adding shows into the mix (many of which, let’s be honest, could have been movies and done just fine).

Really hopeful they cut back and give more attention to their projects. When there’s so much at once from the same studio, it’s hard to feel like each one is just as important as the other, especially when the cracks show across all of the projects.

[JAGzilla]

I really think the introduction of the Disney+ shows spiraled things out of control. They're spreading out the phases over so much media these days that stories are starting to be stretched absolutely thin. With just focusing on movies, things felt way more cohesive and tightly plotted. We'll see whether or not Phase 4 ultimately pans out in the long run but it's definitely a mess right now and I think the large amount of content compared to before is the primary reason.

All of this. The shows are simply an excessive amount of material to have to consume and internalize, and they feel like they're bogging down the pace of the MCU, if that makes sense.

[eabaker]

I think a lot depends on whether you look at it as "all one big story" or as simply a bunch of individual movies and shows which happen to cross over with each other, and can lead to massive crossover events.

As far back as the end of Phase 1, I felt like the movies were rushing too much to get to the big events, and that there weren't enough small stories, intimate moments, or gradual developments. The pace of Phase 4 so far is much more appealing to me, although even there I feel like we miss a significant beat in Wanda's story that could have been filled in by another small project.

[Chrispy_G]

The only thing that's "flopped" for Disney recently is one film - Lightyear. One film, and suddenly the people who have been on the sidelines waiting for Disney to fail suddenly come out to proclaim that the company is on a downward spiral.

It's obnoxious.

Look, if you are a die hard Marvel/Disney fan that's fine, but being so hyper defensive of corporations can be argued to be it's own kind of obnoxious. It isn't illegal or obnoxious to paint the simple facts about the critical, audience, and financial decline of a franchise/property/film studio.

The facts are that these IP Disney relied on for years are starting to decline dramatically for any number of reasons. We can debate all day long about the combination of reasons, but it is happening.

If you think everything is all sunshine and rainbows for Disney, look at how severely their stock has declined in the last year. They won't implode, Disney won't just upend and be gone, you don't have to worry about that. But we are a lifetime away from 2019 where I believe they had 7 films that surpassed $1 Billion at the worldwide box office. When essentially everyone loved them almost unanimously (I personally drank the kool-aid for basically an entire decade)

A film has a budget, and then sometimes another 50% on top of that in marketing costs. A $150M film is an investment of well over $200M after marketing is factored in. Studios don't get 100% of the box office, we theaters DO keep our cut. A film has to double its budget just to be in range to BREAK EVEN, let alone be considered a hit.

NONE of the following includes marketing costs, which can add another 30-50% onto the cost of releasing a film in theaters. A worldwide gross that is less than double the budget is outright BAD

Mulan - $70M worldwide on a $200M budget
Raya - $130M worldwide on a $100M budget
Cruella - $233M worldwide on a "$100-$200M" budget
Black Widow - $379M on a $200M budget (Then the check they had to cut Scarjo after it was all done was said to be another $25-$50M)
Jungle Cruise - $220M on a $200M budget
Eternals - $400M on a $200M budget
Encanto - $256M on a $150M budget
Lightyear - $205M on a $200M budget

To try and act like Lightyear is their only 'flop' of the last 2 years is ridiculous. Again, REGARDLESS of reason (because I know "But pandemic!" is coming as an excuse) these films had these budgets, were promoted and released theatrically with equivalent marketing costs, and did not perform well enough to be considered anything close to "Hits".

Even if you want to argue semantics and say these aren't full blown flops, they are not hits, that is for sure.

The Disney Brand and Marvel franchise used to be evergreen and spent at least a solid decade that way. It isn't going to turn into "all flops all the time" over-night. It starts with flops being more frequent, and the hits being 'not as big'

It starts with surefire "1 Billion hits" like Doctor Strange opening with $450M million, which is HUGE, and not reaching $1 Billion due to poor word of mouth. 9 years of ticket price inflation, and it makes $250M less than Iron Man 3. Iron Man 3 was coming off of a $1.5B hit 1 year prior while Doctor Strange was coming off of a $1.9B hit 6 months prior.

Only for audiences to turn around and launch Top Gun to $1.2 Billion. A completely lackluster film like Jurassic World Dominion is going to finish with a worldwide gross on par with Doctor Strange.

It starts not just with Lightyear flopping, but with Lightyear flopping, people saying "families just aren't going to the movies" and then families turning right around and making Minions a massive hit.

It isn't about whether Thor: Love and Thunder is a flop or not(it was NEVER going to be)....it is about the fact that it cost $70M MORE than Ragnarok and will be lucky to match it at the worldwide Box Office. It's about it being set up as just as much of a high profile release as Doctor Strange, showing off the Guardians, Lady Thor and Christian Bale in every trailer and still opening significantly BELOW Doctor Strange. Not slightly below, a worldwide opening of $150M less.

It's not about it all dropping off a cliff...no major brand ever just drops off the face of the Earth over night, but to say that the franchise...both from a critical and audience response and a Box Office turnout perspective, is not on the decline...is delusional. To actively get upset by it is "immature"

10 years of total superhero dominance (20 years of major popularity), 10 years of total Disney dominance...it is coming to a very real end. Old habits die hard, it won't end overnight, but the way things are is NOT how they used to be just 3 short years ago.

It isn't about feelings, it is about facts.

[Legion1979]

Yes, I get it. You're enjoying their downfall. Enough.

[JAGzilla]

Regarding the falling box office numbers, Disney+ is a huge factor to blame there. There's much less incentive to go out and pay theater prices when you can just wait a month and stream movies at home. The plan was apparently to have D+ subscription fees make up the difference, but I guess that isn't happening, either. A quick Google search says D+ is gushing money all over the place.

[Chrispy_G]

Yes, I get it. You're enjoying their downfall.

Chill dude, I'm not "Enjoying" anything, I'm recognizing that it is happening, that is all.

Whether or not I like the films they've been making has no bearing on it. I'll be first in line for Avatar: The Way of Water. I don't care what happens to Disney. I'm sorry that it is causing you such distress.

Enough.

No. Thanks for asking.

Regarding the falling box office numbers, Disney+ is a huge factor to blame there. There's much less incentive to go out and pay theater prices when you can just wait a month and stream movies at home. The plan was apparently to have D+ subscription fees make up the difference, but I guess that isn't happening, either. A quick Google search says D+ is gushing money all over the place.

Yeah, I think even when it launched, the optimistic projections stated that they didn't expect Disney+ to even be profitable until 2024 or 2025. For all we know, they are missing those projections.

[CyberZilla]

Disney Plus's model, alongside the still-recovering box office and the tidal wave of content from Marvel, definitely contribute to the reason why we don't see many of them hitting an easy billion now. NWH (made in conjunction with Sony, and being a generational crossover) was able to make a billion, and other studios see hits like Top Gun Maverick. However, in the post-pandemic landscape, not a lot of movies are hitting one billion like before, at least not yet. I think that is necessary to consider when evaluating movies right now.

Curious how Star Wars will do when it gets new movies in theaters, considering the hype behind the "Mandoverse" series. I hope it doesn't feel the need to follow Marvel's technique of inundation, because (as of right now) I think that is harming how much each product is making/how well they can do/the overall quality per product.

[Chrispy_G]

Curious how Star Wars will do when it gets new movies in theaters, considering the hype behind the "Mandoverse" series. I hope it doesn't feel the need to follow Marvel's technique of inundation, because (as of right now) I think that is harming how much each product is making/how well they can do/the overall quality per product.

Sadly they used the Mando good will to greenlight a dozen Disney+ Star Wars projects and they have all been underwhelming at best(Bad Batch, Visions, Book of Boba, Obi Wan Kenobi, etc)

These properties are beginning to hit their "milked dry" stage right in front of us. It will be a slow decline, but their peaks are behind them.

[Maverick Centigrade]

Man I was disappointed to see Thor's new helmet on Love and Thunder just be used as a joke. His new outfit was pretty damn cool. I thought after all this time he will finally wear his helmet into battle. But alas...

[Xx_The_Masquerade_xX]

Thor Love and Thunder was awful besides Christian Bale... Even his performance wasn't enough to save it though.

There were way to many jokes, most of which fell flat. Best way to sum this up is it felt more like a spoof then an actual Thor movie.

[Jermobooka]

Went to go see Love and Thunder yesterday. Was a bit underwhelming, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. Seeing Christian Bale as Gorr the God Butcher was easily the best part.

I know I’ve said this many times already, but I’ll say it again—

The currently announced MCU projects, besides the continuation of Daredevil, don’t pique my interest as much as previous films from the previous phases do. The only stuff that will make me come even close to the Phase 2/3 hype will be the Fantastic 4 and especially the X-Men/Wolverine.