What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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Lecontinentperdu
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Lecontinentperdu »

If it's a monster, it's a kaiju.
But why say it in japanese, tho?
Yeah, I find that hype pretty dumb.
As cringe as "no, it's GODJIRA!" from that 98' giant monster movie (and not daikaju eiga) that you know of

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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

JAGzilla wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:18 pm Are we really going to respond by gatekeeping, quibbling over terminology, and putting our radioactive rubber dinosaurs and cyborg space chickens on a pedestal?
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Also after a good night's sleep I'd like to point out that Starro is technically a Seijin, not a Kaiju
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:26 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 1:02 am
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:22 pm

Yeah I think that's what we are getting at (and seeming to be agreeing on). But I do think that somehow having a Japanese origin, even if it's purely inspirational, should be a key element. Otherwise, in it's own way, it detracts from Starro's (and by Proxy America's) own unique history of monsters. I think it's actually cooler to see something like Starro, and appreciate that Americans made that.
Chiming in here, I think the problem with this logic is where exactly do we draw the line at. Are you going to say monsters like Pulgasari and Yonggary, both of whom originated in North and South Korea, aren't kaiju? Gorgo from the UK and Reptilicus from Denmark? Not kaiju either? While I can understand the argument you're making for stuff like the original King Kong, Ray Harryhausen's work and the assortment of giant bugs from the 50's (Though, I personally lump stuff like Deadly Mantis, Tarantula, THEM!, Black Scorpion and Giant Claw into a "western/American kaiju" group), I have problems not understanding why not giving the aforementioned monsters the "kaiju" label simply because they don't come from the land of the rising sun, especially other Asian giants like Pulgasari, Yonggary, and the Thunder Serpent.

And let's not pretend the Pacific Rim films are anything but Hollywood spectacle with inspiration from classic Toku. But at the end of the day, 100% pure American-made monsters. Not kaiju either?
I agree with everything you've said here. It would be easy to call Pulgasari or Yongary Kaiju films specifically because they've been directly inspired by Godzilla. We might denote such films as "Korean-Kaiju films". Things get hairy when you consider Rampage. Rampage was clearly inspired by Godzilla and other Toho properties (someone clearly liked Varan and Biollante), and it is itself based on a game that was a clear homage to other things. But is Rampage a Kaiju film? I don't think that's an easy question, but it certainly leans more heavily in that direction than something like Independence Day Resurgence, or Killer Klowns from outer space, which feature giant monsters. Likewise, I've seen the reverse; Japanese "homages" to the Kaiju genre that may be japanese but lack a lot of craft and creativity that goes into the genre.
Personally speaking, I do consider Rampage as a "kaiju" film. ID4:R and KKFOS definitely aren't kaiju films, but its obvious they dipped their fingers into the genre with the inclusion of, well, giant monsters. They're as much a kaiju movie as something like Toho's Gorath. IE: not a kaiju movie, just featuring a giant monster because reasons.
Thus, the term Kaiju shouldn't only be used for films that originate from Japan, but rather those that also take direct inspiration from it. It's similar to an artistic movement, and how the definitions of said movement warp and change over time, cross cultures, and then click back again and can be broken down into sub-genres and eras.

I think it's worth also acknowledging how much the term "Kaiju" has entered the mainstream, and perhaps in 2014 we would be having a different conversation. Recently I watched Invincible (2021), and in the series Omni-Man goes off to "fight a Kaiju". Additionally, I've heard more and more casual (ie: not within this community) use this term to describe things. Rather than resist, I embrace that the term is becoming more mainstream, and it's a good thing over all. But up until recently, Kaiju was sort of lingo that people seldom used outside of a very specific context within a niche fandom.
This. This right here is the winning statement of this discussion (maybe it should be its own thread...?). Rewind the clock just 10 years ago and you'd have never been able to tell me that "kaiju" would become a mainstream word. It might not be a household word, but other fandoms and communities are definitely embracing it. I chalk it up to Pacific Rim myself, but reasons aside, the word and definition is becoming a lot more frequently used. Be it you agree with it or not, Starro being labeled a "kaiju" by the director himself is further proof of this. I don't believe the character was ever described as a kaiju before, and I'm fairly sure this is just the first. I won't be surprised when Fin Fang Foom makes his appearance in the MCU, someone mentions that he is a kaiju, be it in the film or behind the scenes. Because the word has effectively evolved.

I imagine the differences between a "giant monster" and a "kaiju" are going to get established in due time.

Giant Monster = Just that. A giant monster. Not something that can wreck a city, but big enough to carry off a person. Example: Kong '33, Klownzilla from Killer Klowns, Q the Winged Serpent, the Rancor from RoJ.

Kaiju = Something even bigger. Something that can cause massive damage to a city and fend off a military.

But even then, this divide has some gray lines. Where does stuff like the Ymir and Rhedosaurus fall? They're not city wreckers, but cause a good bit of damage and have some pretty good battles with the army. Same for the Deadly Mantis, Tarantula and the Black Scorpion.

I think I'm starting to ramble on, but I am more than happy to see Hollywood directors like James Gunn embracing the term "kaiju" for their city wrecking beasts.
Last edited by Mac Daddy MM on Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by miguelnuva »

I use to get angry when ever I encountered someone doing racist talk online, now I laugh when someone is online clearly racist and their doing their hardest to explain why they're not racist.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by ROMG4 »

Ehh to be honest I don't really care if people want to call Clifford a Kaiju. I mean go for it if you really, really, want to or just for the sheer fun of it. I've fallen out of the desire to debate definition minute, and either-way it brings more attention to the genre

Whether its the right attention or the definition is being stretched, well that's up to the future to prove I'm certainly no expert and founder of the genre, none of us are. To assume that we can fully judge what is or what isn't or that our definition is correct or more in line than the others is probably hubris

We certainly haven't looked up research or done a paper on it, lol
Last edited by ROMG4 on Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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Now, while we’re on the subject of appropriating Japanese terminology for non-Japanese products: What defines an anime, everyone? :P
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

From Wikipedia (make of that what you will...)
The term kaijū translates literally as "strange beast". Kaiju are science fiction and fantasy creatures, generally "Godzillian" in size and character. They can be antagonistic, protagonistic, or a neutral force of nature, but more specifically as preternatural creatures of divine power. Succinctly, they are not merely, "big animals."
Unfortunately.... I remember the Clifford cartoon that was on when I was a kid. He could talk, was smarter than the average dog, and it was never explained why he was red or how he went from abnormally small to huge and yoked. Begrudgingly... I admit that's a pretty strange beast.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Jermobooka »

Spuro wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:29 pm Now, while we’re on the subject of appropriating Japanese terminology for non-Japanese products: What defines an anime, everyone? :P
Ehem…

Anime is Japanese animation. Hence the name- anim (animation) and the e (Japanese).

I hate when anime styled things are referred to and marketed as “Anime”. No, the Castlevania animated series on Netflix isn’t anime. Avatar isn’t either.

Anime isn’t an art style, or a genre, or a label to slap on to something to make is more appealing. It’s a damn Japanese exclusive art form.
Last edited by Jermobooka on Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Mac Daddy MM »

Jermobooka wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 pm Ehem…


Anime isn’t an art style, or a genre, or a label to slap on to something to make is more appealing. It’s a damn Japanese exclusive art form.
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Quote of the Year:
plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by miguelnuva »

Mac Daddy MM wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:54 pm
Jermobooka wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 pm Ehem…


Anime isn’t an art style, or a genre, or a label to slap on to something to make is more appealing. It’s a damn Japanese exclusive art form.
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Boondocks, Castlevania, RWBY and Avatar are American anime.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Jermobooka »

Mac Daddy MM wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:54 pm
Jermobooka wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 pm Ehem…


Anime isn’t an art style, or a genre, or a label to slap on to something to make is more appealing. It’s a damn Japanese exclusive art form.
Image
Touché. Touché indeed.

Point still semi-stands though. There was a Japnese animation studio working on it.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

In Japan, Spongebob is an anime. :P

Things get far dicer when you consider that actually a lot of early anime were co-productions with American producers.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Inferno Rodan »

Jermobooka wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 5:40 pm Ehem…

Anime is Japanese animation. Hence the name- anim (animation) and the e (Japanese).

I hate when anime styled things are referred to and marketed as “Anime”. No, the Castlevania animated series on Netflix isn’t anime. Avatar isn’t either.

Anime isn’t an art style, or a genre, or a label to slap on to something to make is more appealing. It’s a damn Japanese exclusive art form.
Congratulations, you think SWAT Kats and Transformers: Prime are anime. Both were animated by Japanese animation studios in Japan, after all. Also the bolded sentence is just outright false.

To anyone asking the question of "what is anime?" I suggest watching these videos:


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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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Inferno Rodan wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:08 pm -snip-
Those are good videos. I think the "brand" aspect holds true, as do genres. Genres/labels constantly morph and change over time, warp and distort.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Terasawa »

There is no "official" terminology here but IMO the kaiju sub-genre is made up of Japanese giant monster movies and no more than a few non-Japanese imitators and homages. The early Japanese films were similar to their Hollywood cousins, but they quickly became their own thing. I think it was smart for fans (or whoever) to import the Japanese word "kaiju" to describe and delineate those films; I think it's also foolish to lump in a bunch of unrelated American or non-Japanese movies simply because their monsters are enormous, are given fantastic Godzilla-esque powers, or other similar reasons.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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Been out of the TK loop for a while. Been doing most of my Godzilla talk on Facebook as of late. While there's still some dopes on there, I've noticed that I like the discussion better on there than on a message board type environment. It seems when you have a discussion with actual people with their real names as opposed to anonymous screen names the convos seem to be less hostile and passive aggressive. I still think TK serves a purpose but I can see why the message board format isn't as popular as it used to be.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by Jermobooka »

Inferno Rodan wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 6:08 pm ~snip~
Okay, yeah, I’m convinced now. gg wp.

I heard the “animation + Japanese = anime” thing a long time ago so it sorta stuck with me. Kinda dumb now that I think about it. :lol:
Last edited by Jermobooka on Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

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Godzilla21 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:01 pm the convos seem to be less hostile and passive aggressive.
Now where's the fun in that? :lol:
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Spuro wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:02 pm
Godzilla21 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:01 pm the convos seem to be less hostile and passive aggressive.
Now where's the fun in that? :lol:
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Re: What Gets On Your Nerves 2, The Thread Without a Witty Subtitle!

Post by JAGzilla »

The special brand of selfish dumbfuck that takes a sh1t, doesn't wash his hands, and then goes back to work at a grocery store. Or worse, the brand that sprinkles water on his hands for a quarter second. Good job, you've moistened your hands and made it easier for your shit bacteria to stick to every one of the thousands of items you're about to go stock. Thanks.
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