Traditional Godzilla

[JAGzilla]

With Shin and the two anime entries having introduced new and polarizing elements to their portrayals of Godzilla, some fans have been calling for a return to tradition. In a series as long-running and diverse as this one, however, 'tradition' is a somewhat murky term that will mean different things to different people. I figured this warrants some discussion. Is there such a thing as a 'traditional' Godzilla film? Which films fall into that category? Why?

[Cryptid_Liker]

I'd say what people are most thinking about when they talk aboit a traditional Godzilla movie are the 60s films and the Heisei era so... those.

[Voyager]

Traditional Godzilla…

I’d class traditional Godzilla movies as the Showa Films (barring Revenge and Hedorah), the Heisei films, G2K, GxM, the Kiryu films and Final Wars. Oh, and of course the MonsterVerse.

[darthzilla99]

When I think traditional Godzilla, my mind thinks of him being an upright radiation trex/allosaurus/ect.. dinosaur with three rows of dorsal plates on his back down to his tail, has humanish length arms, Breaths blue streams of radiation fire/ray/beam/flame/ect... that is 50 meters + tall, destroys cities, lives in the ocean depths, fights other monsters similar size to him, is the result of atomic bomb/radioactive materials (either mutated or awakened from dormancy), and is an allegory to man's arrogance and tampering with science. Usually a traditional story with Godzilla is mankind does something stupid because of selfish reasons (greed, environment, arrogant tampering of science, not being respectful, ect...) and either awakens Godzilla's wrath or another kaiju's wraith, which then mankind must solve and learn a lesson about said recklessness. Sometimes Godzilla is used to solve the other kaiju's wraith, sometimes it's another benevolent Kaiju mankind has to seek help for stopping Godzilla's wraith. If the movie is optimistic, then Mankind learns it's mistake. If not, then the ending is mankind appears to learn only to have the government secretly putting things away for further tampering.

[LegendZilla]

When I think traditional Godzilla, my mind thinks of him being an upright radiation trex/allosaurus/ect.. dinosaur with three rows of dorsal plates on his back down to his tail, has humanish length arms, Breaths blue streams of radiation fire/ray/beam/flame/ect... that is 50 meters + tall, destroys cities, lives in the ocean depths, fights other monsters similar size to him, is the result of atomic bomb/radioactive materials (either mutated or awakened from dormancy), and is an allegory to man's arrogance and tampering with science. Usually a traditional story with Godzilla is mankind does something stupid because of selfish reasons (greed, environment, arrogant tampering of science, not being respectful, ect...) and either awakens Godzilla's wrath or another kaiju's wraith, which then mankind must solve and learn a lesson about said recklessness. Sometimes Godzilla is used to solve the other kaiju's wraith, sometimes it's another benevolent Kaiju mankind has to seek help for stopping Godzilla's wraith. If the movie is optimistic, then Mankind learns it's mistake. If not, then the ending is mankind appears to learn only to have the government secretly putting things away for further tampering.

You’ve only got the form and function part down.

[JAGzilla]

All right, we already have some interestingly divergent opinions coming in. I should make clear early on that we can talk about both Godzilla himself and the films here, both are equally relevant.

@Cryptid and Voyager: What's the connective tissue holding the listed films together? You've both mentioned some radically different ones. Why are (for example) Gojira, Sea Monster, Destoroyah, Final Wars, and KOTM19 all allowed into the same club, but others aren't? Not saying you're wrong, just asking the question.

@darthzilla99: So it seems to be origin and atomic breath color that are your sticking points. Otherwise, off the top of my head, you're describing every film in the series that wasn't released in 1998.

@LegendZilla: Some expansion and clarification would be helpful here.

[LegendZilla]

@LegendZilla: Some expansion and clarification would be helpful here.

I like my Godzilla as depicted in the majority of the Showa films and the Heisei era. I am not a fan of things like lost souls possessing him, making him the beef-jerky version of Hedorah who shoots lasers everywhere out of his body (Shin), him being a plant- based creature (Polygon trilogy) and whatever the fuck SP is supposed to be. I hope that makes things clear.

[JAGzilla]

@LegendZilla: Some expansion and clarification would be helpful here.

I like my Godzilla as depicted in the majority of the Showa films and the Heisei era. I am not a fan of things like lost souls possessing him, making him the beef-jerky version of Hedorah who shoots lasers everywhere out of his body (Shin), him being a plant- based creature (Polygon trilogy) and whatever the skreeonk SP is supposed to be. I hope that makes things clear.

Mostly. Which Showa films are the exceptions?

[LegendZilla]

@LegendZilla: Some expansion and clarification would be helpful here.

I like my Godzilla as depicted in the majority of the Showa films and the Heisei era. I am not a fan of things like lost souls possessing him, making him the beef-jerky version of Hedorah who shoots lasers everywhere out of his body (Shin), him being a plant- based creature (Polygon trilogy) and whatever the skreeonk SP is supposed to be. I hope that makes things clear.

Mostly. Which Showa films are the exceptions?

First, the most notable is In Sea Monster and the other two being Hedorah and Megalon.

[JAGzilla]

I like my Godzilla as depicted in the majority of the Showa films and the Heisei era. I am not a fan of things like lost souls possessing him, making him the beef-jerky version of Hedorah who shoots lasers everywhere out of his body (Shin), him being a plant- based creature (Polygon trilogy) and whatever the skreeonk SP is supposed to be. I hope that makes things clear.

Mostly. Which Showa films are the exceptions?

First, the most notable is In Sea Monster and the other two being Hedorah and Megalon.

I'll go ahead and assume this is because of Kong-like behavior, flight, and the tail slide. Magnetism, nuclear pulses, being drawn to bird calls, the Red Spiral Ray, and apocalyptically melting down are all acceptable?

[darthzilla99]

When I think traditional Godzilla, my mind thinks of him being an upright radiation trex/allosaurus/ect.. dinosaur with three rows of dorsal plates on his back down to his tail, has humanish length arms, Breaths blue streams of radiation fire/ray/beam/flame/ect... that is 50 meters + tall, destroys cities, lives in the ocean depths, fights other monsters similar size to him, is the result of atomic bomb/radioactive materials (either mutated or awakened from dormancy), and is an allegory to man's arrogance and tampering with science. Usually a traditional story with Godzilla is mankind does something stupid because of selfish reasons (greed, environment, arrogant tampering of science, not being respectful, ect...) and either awakens Godzilla's wrath or another kaiju's wraith, which then mankind must solve and learn a lesson about said recklessness. Sometimes Godzilla is used to solve the other kaiju's wraith, sometimes it's another benevolent Kaiju mankind has to seek help for stopping Godzilla's wraith. If the movie is optimistic, then Mankind learns it's mistake. If not, then the ending is mankind appears to learn only to have the government secretly putting things away for further tampering.

You’ve only got the form and function part down.

So what am I missing?

JAGzilla:
For me it's story themes as well. I also feel to be a traditional Godzilla the themes have a higher hierarchy than his powers and his exact makeup.
Controversial opinion: Godzilla 98 and Godzilla vs. Hedorah are closer to a traditional Godzilla movie than Monster Zero, Ghidorah the three headed monster, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla vs the sea monster, Godzilla's revenge, and Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. The common denominator is that the main antagonistic force is not caused by mankind directly tampering with science or nature in a reckless way. In Ghidorah, the main antagonist happens irregardless of what mankind does and is simply a situation of bad luck. In monster Zero, Mechagodzilla, and DAM, it's an outside invasion without any regard about what mankind does (unless of course you want to argue that kaiju existing on earth is the reason). In sea monster, the red bamboo are building nuclear weapons and need to be stopped, but their recklessness doesn't cause the kaiju to attack. The reason why Hedorah, and 98 have points is that both films have dire consequences for mankind because of mankind's recklessness (98 is still caused by past nuclear testing and stakes are that this could lead to Mankind's extinction). Even Terror of Mechagodzilla has this aspect with Dr. Mafune tampering with controversial science and attracting an invasion force.

[JAGzilla]

JAGzilla:
For me it's story themes as well. I also feel to be a traditional Godzilla the themes have a higher hierarchy than his powers and his exact makeup.
Controversial opinion: Godzilla 98 and Godzilla vs. Hedorah are closer to a traditional Godzilla movie than Monster Zero, Ghidorah the three headed monster, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla vs the sea monster, Godzilla's revenge, and Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. The common denominator is that the main antagonistic force is not caused by mankind directly tampering with science or nature in a reckless way. In Ghidorah, the main antagonist happens irregardless of what mankind does and is simply a situation of bad luck. In monster Zero, Mechagodzilla, and DAM, it's an outside invasion without any regard about what mankind does (unless of course you want to argue that kaiju existing on earth is the reason). In sea monster, the red bamboo are building nuclear weapons and need to be stopped, but their recklessness doesn't cause the kaiju to attack. The reason why Hedorah, and 98 have points is that both films have dire consequences for mankind because of mankind's recklessness (98 is still caused by past nuclear testing and stakes are that this could lead to Mankind's extinction). Even Terror of Mechagodzilla has this aspect with Dr. Mafune tampering with controversial science and attracting an invasion force.

A take so hot it burned my eyebrows off, but a perfectly valid and logical one.

[darthzilla99]

JAGzilla:
For me it's story themes as well. I also feel to be a traditional Godzilla the themes have a higher hierarchy than his powers and his exact makeup.
Controversial opinion: Godzilla 98 and Godzilla vs. Hedorah are closer to a traditional Godzilla movie than Monster Zero, Ghidorah the three headed monster, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla vs the sea monster, Godzilla's revenge, and Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. The common denominator is that the main antagonistic force is not caused by mankind directly tampering with science or nature in a reckless way. In Ghidorah, the main antagonist happens irregardless of what mankind does and is simply a situation of bad luck. In monster Zero, Mechagodzilla, and DAM, it's an outside invasion without any regard about what mankind does (unless of course you want to argue that kaiju existing on earth is the reason). In sea monster, the red bamboo are building nuclear weapons and need to be stopped, but their recklessness doesn't cause the kaiju to attack. The reason why Hedorah, and 98 have points is that both films have dire consequences for mankind because of mankind's recklessness (98 is still caused by past nuclear testing and stakes are that this could lead to Mankind's extinction). Even Terror of Mechagodzilla has this aspect with Dr. Mafune tampering with controversial science and attracting an invasion force.

A take so hot it burned my eyebrows off, but a perfectly valid and logical one.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about the quality of the films or my personal preferences. I definitely think Ghidorah, Monster Zero, Destroy all monsters, and Mechagodzilla are better made films than 98 and I certainly like the nontraditional ones more than 98 except revenge (I don't like Revenge but it's for different reasons than the cliche hatred of Minya, kids, and stockfootage).

[JAGzilla]

JAGzilla:
For me it's story themes as well. I also feel to be a traditional Godzilla the themes have a higher hierarchy than his powers and his exact makeup.
Controversial opinion: Godzilla 98 and Godzilla vs. Hedorah are closer to a traditional Godzilla movie than Monster Zero, Ghidorah the three headed monster, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla vs the sea monster, Godzilla's revenge, and Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. The common denominator is that the main antagonistic force is not caused by mankind directly tampering with science or nature in a reckless way. In Ghidorah, the main antagonist happens irregardless of what mankind does and is simply a situation of bad luck. In monster Zero, Mechagodzilla, and DAM, it's an outside invasion without any regard about what mankind does (unless of course you want to argue that kaiju existing on earth is the reason). In sea monster, the red bamboo are building nuclear weapons and need to be stopped, but their recklessness doesn't cause the kaiju to attack. The reason why Hedorah, and 98 have points is that both films have dire consequences for mankind because of mankind's recklessness (98 is still caused by past nuclear testing and stakes are that this could lead to Mankind's extinction). Even Terror of Mechagodzilla has this aspect with Dr. Mafune tampering with controversial science and attracting an invasion force.

A take so hot it burned my eyebrows off, but a perfectly valid and logical one.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about the quality of the films or my personal preferences. I definitely think Ghidorah, Monster Zero, Destroy all monsters, and Mechagodzilla are better made films than 98 and I certainly like the nontraditional ones more than 98 except revenge (I don't like Revenge but it's for different reasons than the cliche hatred of Minya, kids, and stockfootage).

No, no, I get what you're saying. Hedorah is all about the message and mankind being punished for our arrogance, and '98 at least made its token effort. The other movies you mentioned feature external threats unrelated to human mistakes. By that metric, yeah, you're inarguably right. Hedorah and '98 are more in line with the original than several of the '60s classics.

[Major sssspielberg!]

^Megaguirus also.
DAM is almost an inverse of the original Godzilla film. It's about mankind harnessing all these beasts they've released, or using science and industry to at least harmonize with them, rather than being terrorized by them.

[Cryptid_Liker]

Mostly. Which Showa films are the exceptions?

First, the most notable is In Sea Monster and the other two being Hedorah and Megalon.

I'll go ahead and assume this is because of Kong-like behavior, flight, and the tail slide. Magnetism, nuclear pulses, being drawn to bird calls, the Red Spiral Ray, and apocalyptically melting down are all acceptable?

I'd say the only abilities of Godzilla that can be considered traditional are regeneration and attacks directly related to atomic energy.

[LegendZilla]

Mostly. Which Showa films are the exceptions?

First, the most notable is In Sea Monster and the other two being Hedorah and Megalon.

I'll go ahead and assume this is because of Kong-like behavior, flight, and the tail slide. Magnetism, nuclear pulses, being drawn to bird calls, the Red Spiral Ray, and apocalyptically melting down are all acceptable?

The Kong-like and Superhero-type behaviour added to the camp-factor. A homing instinct is something many animals have in real life and biomagnetism is something plausible for any organism to evolve, whether on Earth or not.

[Spuro]

In a series as long-running and diverse as this one, however, 'tradition' is a somewhat murky term that will mean different things to different people. I figured this warrants some discussion.

For my money, a Godzilla that doesn't have ridiculously cartoonish body proportions, like Shin and SP's designs, would be a good start. It's hard for me to take either of those incarnations seriously.

Axing the dumb "evolution" angle would also be nice. Kamata-Kun was significantly worse than anything G98 did.

[Voyager]

@Cryptid and Voyager: What's the connective tissue holding the listed films together? You've both mentioned some radically different ones. Why are (for example) Gojira, Sea Monster, Destoroyah, Final Wars, and KOTM19 all allowed into the same club, but others aren't? Not saying you're wrong, just asking the question.

For the films I didn’t mention…

-Revenge: It’s a kiddie flick that’s about a boy learning to deal with bullying by retreating into imagination. That’s unlike anything before or after.
-Hedorah: On second thought, this is pretty traditional. The psychedelics and animation sets it apart though.
-G98: you know why.
-GMK: Completely different Godzilla, with themes of erasure of a nation’s past, and Godzilla being the collective spirits of those killed by Japan in WW2.
-Shin: Evolution, stupid proportions, etc.
-SP: Same as above.

[JAGzilla]

So, the issue of Shin's laser show. I know that ability has its detractors. When you get right down to it, it's really not much different than the nuclear pulse. Both involve omnidirectional releases of huge amounts of nuclear power, just in different forms.