Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

[JAGzilla]

The Monsterverse as a whole to me feels like Showa Godzilla going through Heisei like stories personally.

To a point, yeah. There's some of the reverse, too, and some new things distinct to the Monsterverse. It's definitely its own, unique thing.

And to respond to your earlier post, I'm not blaming the Monsterverse for the loss of traditional Godzilla. The current Toho regime is definitely to blame for that. However , the success of the Monsterverse has created a situation where Godzilla has graduated up to the big league, become a serious American franchise with top-of-the-line 2020s effects and all the other bells and whistles that allow it to blend right in with the MCU, Jurassic World, Star Wars, and all the other billion dollar names that are plastered on American lunchboxes and party hats. From Toho's perspective, that kind of thing is where the money and glory are, and going back to the old way would be a loss of prestige. Shin's insistence on CGI shows that they want to try and keep up with that as best they can, even if other aspects of the movie are admittedly distinctly Japanese.

But, we'll see. Who knows, maybe we're wrong. We have a new mystery movie coming out in 2024. Maybe Hell will freeze over.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Suitmation is largely done for I feel, outside television and other random projects. Of course stuff like Super Sentai and Ultraman will carry on the tradition, at least for the foreseeable future.

[Spuro]

And I am of the opinion that this attitude is a bit extreme and smells of gatekeeping syndrome. Certainly doesn't paint any quality of those works in a positive light even if they don't outright say it sucks.

Yeah, you're not the only one. I can't really fault the other Godzilla communities for decrying TK as "elitist" when in the face of posts like this.

[edgaguirus]

Today's big studios can create characters and effects faster and easier with CGI. Fan films and small productions may use suitmation though.

[JAGzilla]

^^ Have you read the whole conversation, Spuro?

There may be a practical effects renaissance somewhere down the line. It won't be soon, but twenty years down the pipe, once CGI is perfected and stops being an exciting new toy, interest in classic art will pick back up. It's more likely we'll be in a Ready Player 1 hellscape by then, though.

[godjacob]

Sounds more like people here wish Godzilla was a more niche thing so it feels more special being into it, where as I am thankful Godzilla has gotten more exposure especially in the west. I like that there is a growing community of people I can actually share my interest in Godzilla and Kaiju with, vs. years ago when I was just that one guy who liked those Japanese monster films in social circles.

[Voyager]

Sounds more like people here wish Godzilla was a more niche thing so it feels more special being into it, where as I am thankful Godzilla has gotten more exposure especially in the west. I like that there is a growing community of people I can actually share my interest in Godzilla and Kaiju with, vs. years ago when I was just that one guy who liked those Japanese monster films.

I agree.

My unpopular opinion is that it’s ok for Godzilla to not be a part of “Nerd Culture” anymore. It’s one of the big boys now.

[JAGzilla]

Sounds more like people here wish Godzilla was a more niche thing so it feels more special being into it, where as I am thankful Godzilla has gotten more exposure especially in the west. I like that there is a growing community of people I can actually share my interest in Godzilla and Kaiju with, vs. years ago when I was just that one guy who liked those Japanese monster films in social circles.

I can absolutely agree with this, too. I always wanted Godzilla to hit the big time (didn't need validation from it, just thought it would be cool to see), and I'm glad he has. I still get that little bit of satisfaction seeing GvK toys on Walmart shelves. I think my problem is mostly just that it happened at this particular point in time. Hollywood and Toho aren't in their prime right now, and Godzilla is dealing with all the problems of the modern movie industry.

[Spuro]

^^ Have you read the whole conversation, Spuro?

At the time of my initial post, no, but I have by now.

I dunno, I completely understand your guys' nostalgia for the old-school style Godzilla films that Toho seems to be leaning away from these days. When it's explained to me that way, I understand and sympathize. I miss the 2000s Godzilla movies (and games) as well; it's what I grew up on after all.

But conflating that with the franchise going mainstream is what set off my alarm bells. It could be easily misread (as I did with Legion's initial post before) as a complaint about the franchise gaining a much wider fan base. I'd sooner pin the blame on Toho's move away from the classic Godzilla on the decisions of the higherups than on the fanbase's growth in international markets.

[Executive Hamster]

I'm inclined to believe that the old ways of making these movies, what, suit-mation and miniatures, is definitely a thing of the past, and I doubt we will see it much longer. I think its because we've reached a point in our hyper capitalist society that profit motive has almost completely superseded artistry in our film industry. So much of the direction in the modern film industry seems to come from the shareholders and financiers, and as a result weve gotten watered down shallow movies that all kinda look and feel the same. I suspect this will only get worse in the years to come. But as it applies to kaiju films, if cgi is even a dollar cheaper than practical affects, then thats what the studios will go for every time. That kind of classic style we all love has only a niche appeal, and even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter much. Most people agree that Jurassic Park looks way better than Jurassic World. People have been saying it for years, and the film makers had plenty of time to take this into consideration, to work on the way they did their creature affects, but they didn't. Because ultimately, that type of criticism doesn't affect the profitability of the movies. Making Jurassic World have more practical affects than the bare minimum and improving its cgi to look like what 93 graphics could do wasn't worth the time or money to them. And thats one of the most wildly known franchises of all time. Imagine how much less they care about Godzilla, which was pretty niche stateside until a few years ago.

Honestly, IDK why I typed all this and IDK what point I was making, but here it is.

[miguelnuva]

I'm inclined to believe that the old ways of making these movies, what, suit-mation and miniatures, is definitely a thing of the past, and I doubt we will see it much longer. I think its because we've reached a point in our hyper capitalist society that profit motive has almost completely superseded artistry in our film industry. So much of the direction in the modern film industry seems to come from the shareholders and financiers, and as a result weve gotten watered down shallow movies that all kinda look and feel the same. I suspect this will only get worse in the years to come. But as it applies to kaiju films, if cgi is even a dollar cheaper than practical affects, then thats what the studios will go for every time. That kind of classic style we all love has only a niche appeal, and even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter much. Most people agree that Jurassic Park looks way better than Jurassic World. People have been saying it for years, and the film makers had plenty of time to take this into consideration, to work on the way they did their creature affects, but they didn't. Because ultimately, that type of criticism doesn't affect the profitability of the movies. Making Jurassic World have more practical affects than the bare minimum and improving its cgi to look like what 93 graphics could do wasn't worth the time or money to them. And thats one of the most wildly known franchises of all time. Imagine how much less they care about Godzilla, which was pretty niche stateside until a few years ago.

Honestly, IDK why I typed all this and IDK what point I was making, but here it is.

I think a lot of Jurassic Park looks better than Jurassic World comes from the CGI hate train. JP looks great and has a far better story but one of the first things that stuck out to me was how beautiful Jurassic World look in theaters and in 4k.

[darthzilla99]

1. Ironically, with all the talk about cgi taking over everything, you have to give Disney star wars credit for special effects diversity. The sequel trilogy and movies in general used quite a bit of miniatures, suits, and elaborate physical sets. Even Rise of Skywalker used traditional optical effects. Also the streaming shows used physical effects alot.

2. There's still niche communities and discussions around Godzilla. Most discussions is on the kaiju themselves and maybe monsterverse actors. Outside TK and Godzilla scolars like Steve Ryfle and August Ragone, you won't find much discussion on say Kumi Mizuno as an actress, Koichi Kawakita as an effects director, or Ishiro Honda's philosophy. Even the terms Showa and Heisei are niche outside the internet.

[Legion1979]

2. There's still niche communities and discussions around Godzilla. Most discussions is on the kaiju themselves and maybe monsterverse actors. Outside TK and Godzilla scolars like Steve Ryfle and August Ragone, you won't find much discussion on say Kumi Mizuno as an actress, Koichi Kawakita as an effects director, or Ishiro Honda's philosophy. Even the terms Showa and Heisei are niche outside the internet.

Okay...

In the 90s Godzilla as a franchise was so niche that people didn't even know new movies were even being made. People's only reference for the monstet were films made a couple decades earlier. There were no available toys unless you were in the know. You couldn't see any of the movies in Japanese, again, unless you were in the know. Some American versions had disappeared completely. No one knew who Battra or Space Godzilla were. To most people Godzilla was this extremely old movie series with terrible effects and laughable everything else. Even the original 54 movie was a film few had seen.

That's what we mean when we say niche. That is absolutely NOT what Godzilla is now.

[darthzilla99]

2. There's still niche communities and discussions around Godzilla. Most discussions is on the kaiju themselves and maybe monsterverse actors. Outside TK and Godzilla scolars like Steve Ryfle and August Ragone, you won't find much discussion on say Kumi Mizuno as an actress, Koichi Kawakita as an effects director, or Ishiro Honda's philosophy. Even the terms Showa and Heisei are niche outside the internet.

Okay...

In the 90s Godzilla as a franchise was so niche that people didn't even know new movies were even being made. People's only reference for the monstet were films made a couple decades earlier. There were no available toys unless you were in the know. You couldn't see any of the movies in Japanese, again, unless you were in the know. Some American versions had disappeared completely. No one knew who Battra or Space Godzilla were. To most people Godzilla was this extremely old movie series with terrible effects and laughable everything else. Even the original 54 movie was a film few had seen.

That's what we mean when we say niche. That is absolutely NOT what Godzilla is now.

I'm not disagreeing with you (btw, you're not much older than me as Im in my mid 30s so I experienced alot of what you're talking about with the Godzilla fandom. I still remember the Godzilla 98 basketball internet game like it was yesterday or seeing the original tmnt movie in a drive in movie theater). I'm just saying there's still some niche voids that unless you're in internet fourm discussions (even reddit as a concept is still relatively niche to the GA, even more so with Godzilla/kaiju subreddits) you would have no idea about.

[Breakdown]

I don't see how Godzilla being more mainstream is a bad thing? Don't we want to see this franchise grow and prosper? Don't we want new fans to experience that "spark" of love for it like we did way back when, regardless of what got them into it?

The only way this can become a negative is if they milk the franchise to death to where nothing else can be done with it aside from soulless reboots. Now Toho admittedly HAS tried to milk Godzilla in the past (i.e the Millennium series) but they found out the hard way that doesn't work. Given how highly adaptable Godzilla is as a character, I don't think this'll be the case for a while. Toho seems to know this as well, and their experimental approach with the Reiwa era seems indicative of this.

[Legion1979]

I don't see how Godzilla being more mainstream is a bad thing?

No one is saying it is.

Don't we want to see this franchise grow and prosper?

No one is saying we don't.

Don't we want new fans to experience that "spark" of love for it like we did way back when, regardless of what got them into it?

Again, no one is saying we don't.

The only way this can become a negative is if they milk the franchise to death to where nothing else can be done with it aside from soulless reboots. Now Toho admittedly HAS tried to milk Godzilla in the past (i.e the Millennium series) but they found out the hard way that doesn't work. Given how highly adaptable Godzilla is as a character, I don't think this'll be the case for a while. Toho seems to know this as well, and their experimental approach with the Reiwa era seems indicative of this.

But that's not what this conversation is even about.

[godjacob]

I don't see how Godzilla being more mainstream is a bad thing?

No one is saying it is.

Don't we want to see this franchise grow and prosper?

No one is saying we don't.

Don't we want new fans to experience that "spark" of love for it like we did way back when, regardless of what got them into it?

Again, no one is saying we don't.

The only way this can become a negative is if they milk the franchise to death to where nothing else can be done with it aside from soulless reboots. Now Toho admittedly HAS tried to milk Godzilla in the past (i.e the Millennium series) but they found out the hard way that doesn't work. Given how highly adaptable Godzilla is as a character, I don't think this'll be the case for a while. Toho seems to know this as well, and their experimental approach with the Reiwa era seems indicative of this.

But that's not what this conversation is even about.

Then tell me, what IS the conversation about? Cause it is people lamenting that the franchise lost something "special" when it got more exposure in the West and it became more mainstream. Which sounds a lot like complaining that it got popular and "stale" and lost some charm when it was more niche back in the day.

Which by the by even if there were zero western releases the shift to CGI would've still been a thing; given that technology in that field keeps improving and becoming more expansive and easier to grasp. It just means the community would be a lot smaller while making that complaint. And CGI itself is not bad and I am sick of the attitude of "CGI is bad and lazy" by people who usually have no idea of the work that goes into those effects.

[Titanus_Rodan]

I understand both sides of the debate.

On one hand I do miss the era of learning and following every new Millenium Godzilla movie that was being made through G-Fan and old Godzilla fan sites.

On the other hand i LOVE and am thankful that the franchise has grown to wear it is now and that we are getting all kinds of new and various content. I still get a sh*t eating grin on my face when i see Godzilla stuff in stores.

The Godzilla franchise is just evolving with the times like every other major franchise. I'm just happy that it's finding it's place and footing among the big boys of pop culture.

It's to the point now where I don't feel like I have to love every single project that comes out because if I don't like one film or show well there's another one coming right around the corner. I can pick and choose what i enjoy. The Godzilla Expanded Universe is so big now.

A lot of other franchises don't have that luxury right now.

[Terasawa]

I am sick of the attitude of "CGI is bad and lazy" by people who usually have no idea of the work that goes into those effects.

No one has said anything to that effect in this discussion.

That said: even if the technology continues to improve (in what way, exactly?), and even if we acknowledge the level of skill required to produce that kind of imagery, it's not a requirement that anyone like it.

[Legion1979]

Then tell me, what IS the conversation about? Cause it is people lamenting that the franchise lost something "special" when it got more exposure in the West and it became more mainstream. Which sounds a lot like complaining that it got popular and "stale" and lost some charm when it was more niche back in the day.

Which by the by even if there were zero western releases the shift to CGI would've still been a thing; given that technology in that field keeps improving and becoming more expansive and easier to grasp. It just means the community would be a lot smaller while making that complaint. And CGI itself is not bad and I am sick of the attitude of "CGI is bad and lazy" by people who usually have no idea of the work that goes into those effects.

At this point it's just me repeating myself again. I and several others in this thread have done a pretty good job of explaining what we're talking about. I'm just extremely tired of saying things only to have to clarify it over and over again because there are people here who can't read anything without immediately getting defensive/threatened or viewing it as negative or damning criticism.

Several of us are opening up about what makes Godzilla special to us and why things have changed only to constantly have to deal with members who clearly DO NO GET IT who keep going on about haters or gatekeeping or whatever else you've convinced yourself that we're saying.

We don't hate CGI. We're not angry that Godzilla is more meanstream. We're not upset at the Monsterverse or anything Toho is doing. We just miss and are extremely nostalgic for a time period that's gone and isn't coming back. For us to say these things and then have to constantly be stuck in a position to explain ourself to people who, again, DO NOT GET IT is tiring, infuriating and, honestly, unbelievably depressing.