Creating New Iconic Monsters

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Legion1979
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Legion1979 »

You'd have to totally 100% change what Varan even is to make him a "world ending/last boss" kind of monster, and at that point you might as well create something else entirely.

I think its funny how Kaneko wanted to use Varan in 2001 and Toho said "You either use different monsters or you don't make the film". That speaks volumes about what the company thinks of this monster.

And rounding this topic back to home, the Godzilla series turns 70 in two years, with its top 5 most iconic characters being created within the first 20 years. 50 years have gone by. If an already created monster hasn't tapped into that cultural zeitgeist and has been elevated to top status yet, they're not going to. And the chances are even slimmer of that happening for anything brand new.

It would be like expecting a newly created Disney character to become as popular as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Goofy and Pluto and somehow fit into that core group in terms of importance.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by StardustGenius »

Note quite the same thing but Disney turned B league Marvel superheroes like Ironman and Thor into A Listers, and A Listers like the X-Men into cultural backburners in the span of two decades, so it's not impossible. It's all a matter of success, and circumstances, and some effort. Things I can't ever associate with Toho/WB at the moment.

On a side note, a case like the X-Men is an example as to why perception and being in the spotlight can change so quickly. The X-Men were Marvel's go-to superhero property up there with Spider-Man in the 80s and 90s, but by the mid 2000s it gradually shifted away. Very likely with the way the movie rights were tied to Fox, etc. Whose to say Rodan just drifts away, while Hedorah "gets promoted" over the years,

The staff at Toho going for another creature, is probably why they quickly dropped Varan and went with Bagan then the various concept that became Destoroyah. Radical reconceptions have happened before in other major properties (Transformers), just not in Godzilla. I think it's kind of hilarious how Bagan is borderline more relevant than Varan within the span of a month.

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miguelnuva
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by miguelnuva »

Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:33 am You'd have to totally 100% change what Varan even is to make him a "world ending/last boss" kind of monster, and at that point you might as well create something else entirely.

I think its funny how Kaneko wanted to use Varan in 2001 and Toho said "You either use different monsters or you don't make the film". That speaks volumes about what the company thinks of this monster.

And rounding this topic back to home, the Godzilla series turns 70 in two years, with its top 5 most iconic characters being created within the first 20 years. 50 years have gone by. If an already created monster hasn't tapped into that cultural zeitgeist and has been elevated to top status yet, they're not going to. And the chances are even slimmer of that happening for anything brand new.

It would be like expecting a newly created Disney character to become as popular as Mickey, Minnie, Donald, Goofy and Pluto and somehow fit into that core group in terms of importance.
Elsa is as popular ad Mickey mouse debatably. Also i never heard Toho tell Kaneko not to use Angurius and Varan or they were taking his movie.

The story was they were worried about box office(the problem brought up in this thread before) and wanted Mothra and Ghidorah inserted. Kaneko then relented after talking to his friends and learning no of them knew who Angurius and Varan were while Ghidorah and Mothra were stars.
Last edited by miguelnuva on Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Legion1979 »

I absolutely heard that Kaneko was told the movie couldn't be made if he didn't use more marketable monsters. In fact I heard that recently. Don't remember where.

Also, I know Elsa is popular. But I'm talking about the Mickey and Friends group.

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Marciosss
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Marciosss »

I wonder, why they kept Baragon instead of Anguirus

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by eabaker »

To my understanding, Angilas has long been more popular among American fans that Japanese, whereas Baragon has a bit more of a following in Japan.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Legion1979 »

What eabaker said. Something about Baragon has resonated with Japanese fans from the very beginning.

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by miguelnuva »

Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:50 am What eabaker said. Something about Baragon has resonated with Japanese fans from the very beginning.
To add on, Angurius is more popular here in America I believe do to how he was used in books and novels, while Baragon is decently popular in Japan. Baragon has a cameo in Dragonball alongside Godzilla, Gamera, Mothra, Rodan, Ghidorah and I believe Ultraman off the top of my head and Toriyama even had Baragon win the Tenkaichi Budokai.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

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Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:02 am

Also, I know Elsa is popular. But I'm talking about the Mickey and Friends group.
Elsa is easily more popular than Goofy and Pluto and arguably in the same level as Minnie. In fact, outside marvel and Star Wars Disney princesses as a whole arguably make more money for Disney than the Mickey and friends group.


As for the topic at hand, characters can ebb and flow. Before the Clone wars series, Darth Maul was a relatively speaking one movie antagonist. Now he's relatively known to the general public. Before the Prequels, Emperor Palpatine was not that popular. Now he's almost as popular as Darth Vader. Before the wrath of khan, Khan was a very obscure one off villain. Now he's the most iconic Star Trek antagonist of all time.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

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darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:51 pm
Elsa is easily more popular than Goofy and Pluto and arguably in the same level as Minnie. In fact, outside marvel and Star Wars Disney princesses as a whole arguably make more money for Disney than the Mickey and friends group.
Well duh.

But I'm specially talking about the Mickey and Friends group of classic anthropomorphic talking animals. Almost a century after the creation of those characters no newly created character has a chance of entering that group and being as iconic as any of them. That's how I'm looking at it.

As for the topic at hand, characters can ebb and flow. Before the Clone wars series, Darth Maul was a relatively speaking one movie antagonist. Now he's relatively known to the general public. Before the Prequels, Emperor Palpatine was not that popular. Now he's almost as popular as Darth Vader. Before the wrath of khan, Khan was a very obscure one off villain. Now he's the most iconic Star Trek antagonist of all time.
Ooookay. But stop comparing Star Wars and Star Trek to Godzilla. We're lucky that the general American audience knows who King Ghidorah is almost 60 years after his creation.

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by darthzilla99 »

Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:14 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:51 pm
Elsa is easily more popular than Goofy and Pluto and arguably in the same level as Minnie. In fact, outside marvel and Star Wars Disney princesses as a whole arguably make more money for Disney than the Mickey and friends group.
Well duh.

But I'm specially talking about the Mickey and Friends group of classic anthropomorphic talking animals. Almost a century after the creation of those characters no newly created character has a chance of entering that group and being as iconic as any of them. That's how I'm looking at it.

As for the topic at hand, characters can ebb and flow. Before the Clone wars series, Darth Maul was a relatively speaking one movie antagonist. Now he's relatively known to the general public. Before the Prequels, Emperor Palpatine was not that popular. Now he's almost as popular as Darth Vader. Before the wrath of khan, Khan was a very obscure one off villain. Now he's the most iconic Star Trek antagonist of all time.
Ooookay. But stop comparing Star Wars and Star Trek to Godzilla. We're lucky that the general American audience knows who King Ghidorah is almost 60 years after his creation.
Just because Godzilla is less popular than SW and ST doesn't mean the laws of cultural opinion popularity doesn't apply similarly (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Legion1979 »

darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:13 pm (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
.......................so?

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by darthzilla99 »

Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:20 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:13 pm (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
.......................so?
If something applies to Star Trek, it can apply to Godzilla as well is my argument.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by miguelnuva »

darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:28 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:20 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:13 pm (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
.......................so?
If something applies to Star Trek, it can apply to Godzilla as well is my argument.
Legion doesn't like comparing Godzilla to American franchises despite the MV being one now because Godzilla was initially a niche Japanese product and Star Trek for example was a big Hollywood franchise from the start.

Disney I feel isn't as good of a comparison because all Mickey has over his pears is longevity and being the Face of Disney. All of the Disney products for the most part are so popular you're splitting hair comparing them.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Marciosss »

I think Studios don't have will to creating new iconic monsters.
After debut, none of post showa monsters were consider to appear in movie.
Recent creations work in background. MUTO is very good concept, but they don't even appear on ponster and barely in trailer.
From other Titans, Behemoth have five minutes. But decision to ignore other Titans in Godzilla vs Kong led him to obscurity.
Servum and Skullcaver are generic minions to threat humans. Skullclaver withs his exposed bones is also next monster trying be Xenomorph, not being him. They even have coccun like eggs.
Servum and Salunga appear in anime, that is still a nishe. It's quine weird, since european culture to me (i'm from Europe so i know) is closer to Japanese than US.

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Gojira1604 »

darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:13 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:14 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:51 pm
Elsa is easily more popular than Goofy and Pluto and arguably in the same level as Minnie. In fact, outside marvel and Star Wars Disney princesses as a whole arguably make more money for Disney than the Mickey and friends group.
Well duh.

But I'm specially talking about the Mickey and Friends group of classic anthropomorphic talking animals. Almost a century after the creation of those characters no newly created character has a chance of entering that group and being as iconic as any of them. That's how I'm looking at it.

As for the topic at hand, characters can ebb and flow. Before the Clone wars series, Darth Maul was a relatively speaking one movie antagonist. Now he's relatively known to the general public. Before the Prequels, Emperor Palpatine was not that popular. Now he's almost as popular as Darth Vader. Before the wrath of khan, Khan was a very obscure one off villain. Now he's the most iconic Star Trek antagonist of all time.
Ooookay. But stop comparing Star Wars and Star Trek to Godzilla. We're lucky that the general American audience knows who King Ghidorah is almost 60 years after his creation.
Just because Godzilla is less popular than SW and ST doesn't mean the laws of cultural opinion popularity doesn't apply similarly (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
Are y'all sure ST is more popular than Godzilla? Doesn't feel that way.
Also I feel the Borg are more popular/iconic/well known that Khan is.

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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by darthzilla99 »

Gojira1604 wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 7:56 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:13 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:14 pm

Well duh.

But I'm specially talking about the Mickey and Friends group of classic anthropomorphic talking animals. Almost a century after the creation of those characters no newly created character has a chance of entering that group and being as iconic as any of them. That's how I'm looking at it.




Ooookay. But stop comparing Star Wars and Star Trek to Godzilla. We're lucky that the general American audience knows who King Ghidorah is almost 60 years after his creation.
Just because Godzilla is less popular than SW and ST doesn't mean the laws of cultural opinion popularity doesn't apply similarly (BTW, Monsterverse from a box office standpoint has a better track record than Abrams Star Trek movies so they absolutely can be compared).
Are y'all sure ST is more popular than Godzilla? Doesn't feel that way.
Also I feel the Borg are more popular/iconic/well known that Khan is.

It's a good question. The height of Star Trek's popularity was the 80s and 90s with the OT movies and the next generation shows. I think it could be changing since Star Trek doesn't have near as much merchandise as Godzilla nowadays.

As far as Borg vs. Khan, The Wrath of Khan is by far the most well-known and iconic Star Trek movie of all time and even William Shatner's 'KHAAAAN!!!!!!" scream is more known to the general public than "You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile".
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by Voyager »

Wouldn’t be surprised if Rodan eventually fades from his top spot. It’s clear that out of the Big 5, he’s the one barely clinging on.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by miguelnuva »

Voyager wrote: Mon Nov 07, 2022 10:05 pm Wouldn’t be surprised if Rodan eventually fades from his top spot. It’s clear that out of the Big 5, he’s the one barely clinging on.
Rodan was just in the MV so I don't think he's going anywhere.
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Re: Creating New Iconic Monsters

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

Rodan has also appeared in Godzilla singular point, alongside Ghidorah in The Ride, and even in Chibi-Godzilla. Rodan is very much on everyone's minds, even if it's not under the best of circumstances, or compreable to his glory days in the 60's.
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