miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:03 pm
KingKong2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:27 pm
miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 am
The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.
Like I said. Round 2 in KKvG was very balanced. Kong was on top for the beginning then he knocked himself out. If he didn’t do that it didn’t seem like he was letting up on Godzilla. Round 1 in KKvG is def one-sided with Kong walking away, but he didn’t retreat in a “oh snap I’m gonna die” way, it seemed more like confusion and “oh okay”. If in round 2 of KKvG the beam would slice him in half, I’d be on your side, but fact of the matter is he just eats the atomic breath in KKvG and is shown tackling Godzilla, constantly challenging him strength-wise, and using his intelligence when grappling him. Compare that to the H2H in GvK and it’s pathetic. Kong’s blows in GvK do stun Godzilla but how many times does that happen? Like three or four times in the whole film? GvK’s fights are way too one-sided plain and simple. And yeah, you seemed to ignore the 9 saves Kong had in the film like I mentioned prior. KKvG Kong was definitely stupid at times, but at least he held his own and his only demise was his own fault. Compare the 1 save he had from lightning which was hinted at the start of the film to the 9 GvK Kong has and it’s no contest. I don’t believe this is subjective either. In comparison to their respective Godzilla’s, King Kong 62 did way better than Kong 21 ever possibly could. The fights in KKvG are way better written.
You're argument stems from Kong is up against a force of nature and I don't like that as a Kong fan.
Godzilla and Kong's fight in 62 is hugs and wrestling with Godzilla firing his ray occasionally and then Kong runs at him, Godzilla can't stand up and then knocks himself out on a rock.
Godzilla fights like and idiot in 62 and as I said before I like KK vs G.
Atleast in Godzilla vs Kong they are trying to actually kill one another.
Entertainment wise and what you prefer ate debatable but I'd argue Godzilla vs Kong is choreographed much better than KK vs G. There is nothing wrong with an underdog fight.
Again with the limitations of suitmation, it's pretty hard to have some good fight choreography with such bulky suits. See, GvK was SUPPOSED to top KKvG in terms of fight choreography. And in many cases it does. But the writing of the fights? That's a different story. They're trying to kill each other in KKvG as well, it's just corny asf cause Showa Era. You seem to have choreography and writing mixed up. The writing of the fights in GvK is where I have a problem, as it's not entertaining and it's not better written than the KKvG film. You can still portray an underdog with them also giving the other opponent a mean fight. Without that, you don't have an interesting fight in the slightest.
godjacob wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:46 pm
KingKong2005 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:27 pm
miguelnuva wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 am
The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.
Like I said. Round 2 in KKvG was very balanced. Kong was on top for the beginning then he knocked himself out. If he didn’t do that it didn’t seem like he was letting up on Godzilla. Round 1 in KKvG is def one-sided with Kong walking away, but he didn’t retreat in a “oh snap I’m gonna die” way, it seemed more like confusion and “oh okay”. If in round 2 of KKvG the beam would slice him in half, I’d be on your side, but fact of the matter is he just eats the atomic breath in KKvG and is shown tackling Godzilla, constantly challenging him strength-wise, and using his intelligence when grappling him. Compare that to the H2H in GvK and it’s pathetic. Kong’s blows in GvK do stun Godzilla but how many times does that happen? Like three or four times in the whole film? GvK’s fights are way too one-sided plain and simple. And yeah, you seemed to ignore the 9 saves Kong had in the film like I mentioned prior. KKvG Kong was definitely stupid at times, but at least he held his own and his only demise was his own fault. Compare the 1 save he had from lightning which was hinted at the start of the film to the 9 GvK Kong has and it’s no contest. I don’t believe this is subjective either. In comparison to their respective Godzilla’s, King Kong 62 did way better than Kong 21 ever possibly could. The fights in KKvG are way better written.
I think the fact that Kong was dumb enough to
knock himself out and required an actual Deus Ex Machina just to actually fight with Godzilla on equal footing disqualifies it from "objectively" a better written fight than any of the ones in Godzilla vs. Kong.
Yeah Kong knocking himself out was definitely stupid, but it's a campy Showa Era film from 62. The lightning was hinted at the start of the film and throughout the entire plot, and yes the idea of Kong having the lightning since Toho was lazy with the script is still an issue, but the execution was fine. The WRITING of the fights were much better than GvK. It isn't one-sided. Kong knocking himself out seemed to be the deus x machina, not the lightning. But no, the fights in GvK where Kong is always getting saved by the humans + requiring an axe + saved by Goji himself deus ex machina is objectively much better, according to you. Come on now. That doesn't make sense at all, even going by your logic!
JAGzilla wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:52 am
^ I would imagine that Kong fighting to the end and going down defiantly rather than tripping and braining himself on a rock is a key distinction. GvK is a bottom 5 Godzilla movie for me, but I can see some of its appeals.
No I completely agree with you! You'd think by GvK we'd get much better fight choreography and ESPECIALLY writing like the kinds of battles we're getting in these fan animations on YouTube, but they just dropped the ball hard with the writing. The fight choreography was serviceable, but definitely not living up to the full potential these guys could be fighting at. Godzilla going on all fours and mauling Kong would have just been the beginning. Same with Kong utilizing a superman punch in the fight. Those moments, which became instant fan favorites and standouts to the GA, would have only been the beginning if the creators actually CARED about the fights. The kinds of fight moves and techniques we could have seen from G and K could have been spectacular, instead it seems like they only shot for serviceable at best. Obviously it's better than KKvG, but is that saying much compared to a suitmation film from 1962? No. Feels like people are throwing bones for the bare minimum here. So TL;DR, the choreography while better could be leagues above what we had gotten, and the writing of the fights easily lose to KKvG which has much better writing and entertainment value due to being less one-sided.
Terasawa wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:05 am
eabaker wrote: ↑Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:48 am
godjacob wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:46 pm
I think the fact that Kong was dumb enough to
knock himself out and required an actual Deus Ex Machina just to actually fight with Godzilla on equal footing disqualifies it from "objectively" a better written fight than any of the ones in Godzilla vs. Kong.
How is Kong knocking himself out and requiring a Deus Ex Machina power-up (which he also got in GvsK, by way of that stupid ax) a problem in the context of an absurdist comedy? I would describe it as a highlight.
I'm not sure it's even a deus ex machina. Sekizawa sets up Kong's connection with thunderstorms even before we see Kong in the movie, albeit primarily through wordplay that only the Japanese audience would get (the Janus/Criterion subtitles don't make the connection). The thunderstorm forming over Mt. Fuji during the final battle is coincidental plotting, sure, but it's not like Kong's relation to thunder and lightning is totally out of left field.
Yes! I thought it was pretty clear that Kong was hinted as a lightning god-esque figure throughout the story. At times it even felt like certain roars of his would bring about thunder directly like we see when he's on Faro Island, though that's just a personal theory. As for how it hurt Godzilla, it obviously hurt him so theories like Kong's body acting as a special conductor of electricity that generates millions-if not billions to trillions of electrical watts seems to make sense enough.
I think GodJacob (and many other fan's) biggest problem isn't that it felt like an out-of-nowhere deus ex machina (despite it being hinted at the start of the film), but that it feels like a deus ex machina for King Kong's character himself. Because the character is notorious for having little to no notable powers, the fact that he dare be seen
with powers seems to be the deus ex machina. Taking into account the seemingly abrupt appearance of his powers is actually hinted at the start, and that this is a kaiju version of King Kong which is a brand new incarnation entirely (not the only Kong with powers as well), there really shouldn't be any issue.