Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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miguelnuva
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by miguelnuva »

eabaker wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:54 am
miguelnuva wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:18 am
When I say the fights are choreographed better I'm saying the Showa fights were hugs and basic pushes while the new fights have jumping flying and a lot more action.
Yes, the fights in the MV are more elaborate, but that doesn't necessarily equate to "better." Heck, a lot of what Kong does in GvsK is absolutely cartoonish considering the character's size/mass, bwhich I'm sure many would argue makes them "bad" fights, but I'd argue they're appropriate to the style/tone of the movie.

As for the fights in KKvsG, they were intentionally modeled after wrestling matches, which were extremely popular on Japanese television at the time; that fits well with the movie's overall satirical theme.
We agree, I'm not saying Godzilla vs Kong had better fights I just mean more was put into them due to CGI vs Suits as well as 60's techniques vs modern. I brought up something like the Duel of the Fates compared to Luke vs Vader in ESB. One is more elaborate, but it is not necessarily better.

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Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:31 am The showa fights were "hugs and basic pushes"?

Please go watch King Kong vs Godzilla again...
The majorly of Godzilla vs Kong was Kong running into Godzilla and doing hugs and slight punches. Godzilla would use atomic breath every so often then they would throw rocks. Supercharged Kong flips Godzilla once and throws him by the tail once.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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godjacob wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:22 pm I think Godzilla vs. Kong the fights have much better chorography with more memorable spots, sets pieces and each fight having a unique flow to it. Also feel the locations are distinct and the character work and personality really shine across each Kaiju.
I was only wondering by which criteria you'd determined it was objectively a better fight scene, since that's the word you used in response to KingKong2005.
eabaker wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:54 am As for the fights in KKvsG, they were intentionally modeled after wrestling matches, which were extremely popular on Japanese television at the time; that fits well with the movie's overall satirical theme.
And of course it's through the movie's one explicit reference to wrestling by which Sekizawa satirizes the film's very concept. (As I know you know.)

Secretary: "Who's stronger: King Kong or Godzilla?"
Obashi: "Idiot! It's not a wrestling match."
Tako: "Fantastic! I like that idea! King Kong vs. Godzilla!"

I think it's one of the smartest scripts in the entire series.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Terasawa wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:58 pm
godjacob wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 12:22 pm I think Godzilla vs. Kong the fights have much better chorography with more memorable spots, sets pieces and each fight having a unique flow to it. Also feel the locations are distinct and the character work and personality really shine across each Kaiju.
I was only wondering by which criteria you'd determined it was objectively a better fight scene, since that's the word you used in response to KingKong2005.
eabaker wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:54 am As for the fights in KKvsG, they were intentionally modeled after wrestling matches, which were extremely popular on Japanese television at the time; that fits well with the movie's overall satirical theme.
And of course it's through the movie's one explicit reference to wrestling by which Sekizawa satirizes the film's very concept. (As I know you know.)

Secretary: "Who's stronger: King Kong or Godzilla?"
Obashi: "Idiot! It's not a wrestling match."
Tako: "Fantastic! I like that idea! King Kong vs. Godzilla!"

I think it's one of the smartest scripts in the entire series.
But Kong jumps off buildings, has an axe and knows sign language! Can't you see how the newer movie is better!?!?

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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It's not my intent to belittle someone's opinion or instigate a flame war. But since objectivity was invoked (I believe by KingKong2005, initially), I was merely wondering what (if any) the argument for it was.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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When comparing two films like this, their individual styles must be accounted for. KK vs G is a satire, and it shows in the script, characters, and fights. G vs K is a serious sci-fi/adventure film with action, drama, and plenty of visual effects. As Eabaker said, the fights in KK vs G are wrestling matches; It's meant to look both big and silly. G vs K's big fight is a feast for the eyes with fast and hard monster combat. There will be preferences for both sides depending on what you like, but both movies achieved what they were going for.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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* Kong attempts to pull Godzilla towards him by his tail
* Both monsters throw rocks at each other
* Godzilla jump kicks Kong
* Godzilla tries to bury Kong with rocks and sets the area around him on fire
* Kong grabs Godzilla by the tail and literally throws him across the landscape
* Godzilla knocks Kong's feet out from under him with his tail
* Kong judo flips Godzilla
*Kong shoves a tree down Godzilla's throat.

So I'm still trying to process the idea that this fight was just pushing and hugging. There's a lot more than that going on here.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:16 pm * Kong attempts to pull Godzilla towards him by his tail
* Both monsters throw rocks at each other
* Godzilla jump kicks Kong
* Godzilla tries to bury Kong with rocks and sets the area around him on fire
* Kong grabs Godzilla by the tail and literally throws him across the landscape
* Godzilla knocks Kong's feet out from under him with his tail
* Kong judo flips Godzilla
*Kong shoves a tree down Godzilla's throat.

So I'm still trying to process the idea that this fight was just pushing and hugging. There's a lot more than that going on here.
All of what you posted are brief moments in between the hugging and pushing the two did.

Godzilla flings his off his tail and they grapple.
They throw rocks, Godzilla burns Kong and it leads to more grappling.
Kong pushes Godzilla, throws Rocks while Godzilla struggles to get up then Kong somersaults into a Rock head first.
There is ground and pound and more pushing between Kong throwing Godzilla and the tree spot.
There is more grappling between Godzilla knocking down Kong and the Judo flip.
Finally there is a massive push by Kong that Godzilla goes miles down the road.

A large portion of their original fight is grappling and pushing but the entire fight is not that.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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edgaguirus wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 2:03 pm When comparing two films like this, their individual styles must be accounted for. KK vs G is a satire, and it shows in the script, characters, and fights. G vs K is a serious sci-fi/adventure film with action, drama, and plenty of visual effects. As Eabaker said, the fights in KK vs G are wrestling matches; It's meant to look both big and silly. G vs K's big fight is a feast for the eyes with fast and hard monster combat. There will be preferences for both sides depending on what you like, but both movies achieved what they were going for.
I agree with this, I just prefer GvK's style and found it to be the more enjoyable film. Didn't mean to spark a flame war on here XD
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Incidentally, with nothing going on this evening and this discussion on my mind (but mostly because it's one of the best Godzilla movies), I popped in last year's Blu-ray release of KKvG. And not to trudge up the great deus ex machina debate again, but a detail I picked up this time is that the sky around Mt. Fuji *as soon as Kong is transported into the area* is cloudy. Some are white, some are very dark, but they're all painted into the sound stage cyclorama. It's very prominent around the mountain's peak, and the skies are much clearer towards Atami Castle, where the battle ends. (Fittingly, because the monsters are on very even footing at this point of the battle.)

So all that's to say it's even less of a random occurrence than it's been made out to be.

Forgive the lack of illustrative screenshots, but I don't have a computer with BD playback anymore.

This is also the kind of little background detail that might not have been obvious in previous versions of the movie, and I can't recall picking up on it before myself. But it's also the very subtle kind of detail that the same filmmakers use in a lot of these movies.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Terasawa wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:24 pm Incidentally, with nothing going on this evening and this discussion on my mind (but mostly because it's one of the best Godzilla movies), I popped in last year's Blu-ray release of KKvG. And not to trudge up the great deus ex machina debate again, but a detail I picked up this time is that the sky around Mt. Fuji *as soon as Kong is transported into the area* is cloudy. Some are white, some are very dark, but they're all painted into the sound stage cyclorama. It's very prominent around the mountain's peak, and the skies are much clearer towards Atami Castle, where the battle ends. (Fittingly, because the monsters are on very even footing at this point of the battle.)

So all that's to say it's even less of a random occurrence than it's been made out to be.
To add on (but yeah I know this probably isn't anything you don't know already): It's also foreshadowed in the first scene with Kong. When Kong wakes up on Faro Island, there's thunder and lighting. Kong is at first mistaken for lightning itself. No clue where people are getting this idea that it is random or isn't established prior. It's not a deus-ex machina because it's well established and built up throughout.

And while I don't think this is intentional (more likely a vestigial leftover of Frankenstein being eliminated from the draft), I think it's interesting how Kong in essence becomes very similar to the depictions of Japanese thunder deities. Maybe it's random from a pure-Kong viewing, but I don't think Kong getting electric powers is any more bizarre than Godzilla's existence.
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Honestly, I do like how both versions of Kong (KKVG and GVK) were given cool updates to fight Godzilla.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:53 pm To add on (but yeah I know this probably isn't anything you don't know already): It's also foreshadowed in the first scene with Kong. When Kong wakes up on Faro Island, there's thunder and lighting. Kong is at first mistaken for lightning itself. No clue where people are getting this idea that it is random or isn't established prior. It's not a deus-ex machina because it's well established and built up throughout.
It's actually even foreshadowed before Kong turns up. Sakurai (Tadao Takashima) unknowingly identifies Kong as a literal God of Thunder when the natives prostrate themselves at the first sign of thunder, saying something along the lines of, "their god (神 kami) is only thunder and lightning (雷 kaminari)!" It's another clever play on words in a script full of them. Unfortunately, the Janus subs choose to translate it literally without any hint that it's a pun.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Terasawa wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:28 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:53 pm To add on (but yeah I know this probably isn't anything you don't know already): It's also foreshadowed in the first scene with Kong. When Kong wakes up on Faro Island, there's thunder and lighting. Kong is at first mistaken for lightning itself. No clue where people are getting this idea that it is random or isn't established prior. It's not a deus-ex machina because it's well established and built up throughout.
It's actually even foreshadowed before Kong turns up. Sakurai (Tadao Takashima) unknowingly identifies Kong as a literal God of Thunder when the natives prostrate themselves at the first sign of thunder, saying something along the lines of, "their god (神 kami) is only thunder and lightning (雷 kaminari)!" It's another clever play on words in a script full of them. Unfortunately, the Janus subs choose to translate it literally without any hint that it's a pun.
In that case, the relation to Raijin (what I posted before), isn't a coincidence and is completely justified. I think this is a prime example of how something gets lost on different audiences. For Japanese audiences, Kong's relationship to Thunder and the Raijin would be instantly recognizable, but it's something Western/American audiences find a bit more befuddling. I find it strange that King Kong specifically was forced/appropriated into this role, but this has made me appreciate Kong's role in the film a lot more. Awesome discovery and analysis. I'll be on a lookout for more stuff like that when I rewatch the film.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:39 pm
Terasawa wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 4:28 pm
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 3:53 pm To add on (but yeah I know this probably isn't anything you don't know already): It's also foreshadowed in the first scene with Kong. When Kong wakes up on Faro Island, there's thunder and lighting. Kong is at first mistaken for lightning itself. No clue where people are getting this idea that it is random or isn't established prior. It's not a deus-ex machina because it's well established and built up throughout.
It's actually even foreshadowed before Kong turns up. Sakurai (Tadao Takashima) unknowingly identifies Kong as a literal God of Thunder when the natives prostrate themselves at the first sign of thunder, saying something along the lines of, "their god (神 kami) is only thunder and lightning (雷 kaminari)!" It's another clever play on words in a script full of them. Unfortunately, the Janus subs choose to translate it literally without any hint that it's a pun.
In that case, the relation to Raijin (what I posted before), isn't a coincidence and is completely justified. I think this is a prime example of how something gets lost on different audiences. For Japanese audiences, Kong's relationship to Thunder and the Raijin would be instantly recognizable, but it's something Western/American audiences find a bit more befuddling. I find it strange that King Kong specifically was forced/appropriated into this role, but this has made me appreciate Kong's role in the film a lot more. Awesome discovery and analysis. I'll be on a lookout for more stuff like that when I rewatch the film.
Interesting observation. You've found a noteworthy example of an idea lost in translation.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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If there is any Deus Ex which I don't think there is it's Godzilla is not weaker against lighting.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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miguelnuva wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:03 pm
KingKong2005 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:27 pm
miguelnuva wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 am The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.
Like I said. Round 2 in KKvG was very balanced. Kong was on top for the beginning then he knocked himself out. If he didn’t do that it didn’t seem like he was letting up on Godzilla. Round 1 in KKvG is def one-sided with Kong walking away, but he didn’t retreat in a “oh snap I’m gonna die” way, it seemed more like confusion and “oh okay”. If in round 2 of KKvG the beam would slice him in half, I’d be on your side, but fact of the matter is he just eats the atomic breath in KKvG and is shown tackling Godzilla, constantly challenging him strength-wise, and using his intelligence when grappling him. Compare that to the H2H in GvK and it’s pathetic. Kong’s blows in GvK do stun Godzilla but how many times does that happen? Like three or four times in the whole film? GvK’s fights are way too one-sided plain and simple. And yeah, you seemed to ignore the 9 saves Kong had in the film like I mentioned prior. KKvG Kong was definitely stupid at times, but at least he held his own and his only demise was his own fault. Compare the 1 save he had from lightning which was hinted at the start of the film to the 9 GvK Kong has and it’s no contest. I don’t believe this is subjective either. In comparison to their respective Godzilla’s, King Kong 62 did way better than Kong 21 ever possibly could. The fights in KKvG are way better written.
You're argument stems from Kong is up against a force of nature and I don't like that as a Kong fan.

Godzilla and Kong's fight in 62 is hugs and wrestling with Godzilla firing his ray occasionally and then Kong runs at him, Godzilla can't stand up and then knocks himself out on a rock.

Godzilla fights like and idiot in 62 and as I said before I like KK vs G.

Atleast in Godzilla vs Kong they are trying to actually kill one another.

Entertainment wise and what you prefer ate debatable but I'd argue Godzilla vs Kong is choreographed much better than KK vs G. There is nothing wrong with an underdog fight.
Again with the limitations of suitmation, it's pretty hard to have some good fight choreography with such bulky suits. See, GvK was SUPPOSED to top KKvG in terms of fight choreography. And in many cases it does. But the writing of the fights? That's a different story. They're trying to kill each other in KKvG as well, it's just corny asf cause Showa Era. You seem to have choreography and writing mixed up. The writing of the fights in GvK is where I have a problem, as it's not entertaining and it's not better written than the KKvG film. You can still portray an underdog with them also giving the other opponent a mean fight. Without that, you don't have an interesting fight in the slightest.
godjacob wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:46 pm
KingKong2005 wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:27 pm
miguelnuva wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 am The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.
Like I said. Round 2 in KKvG was very balanced. Kong was on top for the beginning then he knocked himself out. If he didn’t do that it didn’t seem like he was letting up on Godzilla. Round 1 in KKvG is def one-sided with Kong walking away, but he didn’t retreat in a “oh snap I’m gonna die” way, it seemed more like confusion and “oh okay”. If in round 2 of KKvG the beam would slice him in half, I’d be on your side, but fact of the matter is he just eats the atomic breath in KKvG and is shown tackling Godzilla, constantly challenging him strength-wise, and using his intelligence when grappling him. Compare that to the H2H in GvK and it’s pathetic. Kong’s blows in GvK do stun Godzilla but how many times does that happen? Like three or four times in the whole film? GvK’s fights are way too one-sided plain and simple. And yeah, you seemed to ignore the 9 saves Kong had in the film like I mentioned prior. KKvG Kong was definitely stupid at times, but at least he held his own and his only demise was his own fault. Compare the 1 save he had from lightning which was hinted at the start of the film to the 9 GvK Kong has and it’s no contest. I don’t believe this is subjective either. In comparison to their respective Godzilla’s, King Kong 62 did way better than Kong 21 ever possibly could. The fights in KKvG are way better written.
I think the fact that Kong was dumb enough to knock himself out and required an actual Deus Ex Machina just to actually fight with Godzilla on equal footing disqualifies it from "objectively" a better written fight than any of the ones in Godzilla vs. Kong.
Yeah Kong knocking himself out was definitely stupid, but it's a campy Showa Era film from 62. The lightning was hinted at the start of the film and throughout the entire plot, and yes the idea of Kong having the lightning since Toho was lazy with the script is still an issue, but the execution was fine. The WRITING of the fights were much better than GvK. It isn't one-sided. Kong knocking himself out seemed to be the deus x machina, not the lightning. But no, the fights in GvK where Kong is always getting saved by the humans + requiring an axe + saved by Goji himself deus ex machina is objectively much better, according to you. Come on now. That doesn't make sense at all, even going by your logic!
JAGzilla wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 9:52 am ^ I would imagine that Kong fighting to the end and going down defiantly rather than tripping and braining himself on a rock is a key distinction. GvK is a bottom 5 Godzilla movie for me, but I can see some of its appeals.
No I completely agree with you! You'd think by GvK we'd get much better fight choreography and ESPECIALLY writing like the kinds of battles we're getting in these fan animations on YouTube, but they just dropped the ball hard with the writing. The fight choreography was serviceable, but definitely not living up to the full potential these guys could be fighting at. Godzilla going on all fours and mauling Kong would have just been the beginning. Same with Kong utilizing a superman punch in the fight. Those moments, which became instant fan favorites and standouts to the GA, would have only been the beginning if the creators actually CARED about the fights. The kinds of fight moves and techniques we could have seen from G and K could have been spectacular, instead it seems like they only shot for serviceable at best. Obviously it's better than KKvG, but is that saying much compared to a suitmation film from 1962? No. Feels like people are throwing bones for the bare minimum here. So TL;DR, the choreography while better could be leagues above what we had gotten, and the writing of the fights easily lose to KKvG which has much better writing and entertainment value due to being less one-sided.
Terasawa wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 10:05 am
eabaker wrote: Tue Jul 05, 2022 8:48 am
godjacob wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:46 pm I think the fact that Kong was dumb enough to knock himself out and required an actual Deus Ex Machina just to actually fight with Godzilla on equal footing disqualifies it from "objectively" a better written fight than any of the ones in Godzilla vs. Kong.
How is Kong knocking himself out and requiring a Deus Ex Machina power-up (which he also got in GvsK, by way of that stupid ax) a problem in the context of an absurdist comedy? I would describe it as a highlight.
I'm not sure it's even a deus ex machina. Sekizawa sets up Kong's connection with thunderstorms even before we see Kong in the movie, albeit primarily through wordplay that only the Japanese audience would get (the Janus/Criterion subtitles don't make the connection). The thunderstorm forming over Mt. Fuji during the final battle is coincidental plotting, sure, but it's not like Kong's relation to thunder and lightning is totally out of left field.
Yes! I thought it was pretty clear that Kong was hinted as a lightning god-esque figure throughout the story. At times it even felt like certain roars of his would bring about thunder directly like we see when he's on Faro Island, though that's just a personal theory. As for how it hurt Godzilla, it obviously hurt him so theories like Kong's body acting as a special conductor of electricity that generates millions-if not billions to trillions of electrical watts seems to make sense enough.

I think GodJacob (and many other fan's) biggest problem isn't that it felt like an out-of-nowhere deus ex machina (despite it being hinted at the start of the film), but that it feels like a deus ex machina for King Kong's character himself. Because the character is notorious for having little to no notable powers, the fact that he dare be seen with powers seems to be the deus ex machina. Taking into account the seemingly abrupt appearance of his powers is actually hinted at the start, and that this is a kaiju version of King Kong which is a brand new incarnation entirely (not the only Kong with powers as well), there really shouldn't be any issue.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I am going to get so much flak for this, but oh well.

Before I begin, let me just say I think Ifukube is a GREAT composer and I absolutely love most of his work. However...

When comparing him with other great composers, I think his work is extremely lazy. Once again, it is GOOD. But almost every movie has the same tracks. I'm sure there's going to be a specific reason brought up, from budget to time constraints. And it might not be all his fault. But I've had this opinion for years now, and rewatching the Daimajin trilogy really cements it as its one of his offerings from outside the Toho lineup. Hearing his classic themes in a film like this...

It just seems lame. Once again, I *ENJOY* hearing them. But putting these tracks on films like this is like putting the JAWS theme over Darth Vader when John Williams scored it.

Once again, I do not know the actual reasons behind it and maybe there is a valid reason why he did it. But when comparing other great composer's bodies of work to his...


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plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

John Williams reuses his themes allllll the time. It's more common in film scoring than people tend to think.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Also, compare the sheer number of films Ifukube was scoring at the height of his career compared to Williams. Ifukube was expected to compose and orchestrate these things at incredible speed.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Major sssspielberg! wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:49 am John Williams reuses his themes allllll the time. It's more common in film scoring than people tend to think.
Yes, but you don't hear JAWS in Star Wars. You don't hear Star Wars in Jurassic Park.

eabaker wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:54 am Also, compare the sheer number of films Ifukube was scoring at the height of his career compared to Williams. Ifukube was expected to compose and orchestrate these things at incredible speed.
Oh yes, no doubt that factored into it. As I said, I'm not criticizing his work. I'm criticizing its overuse. Like there's a big difference in hearing the same tracks in the Godzilla/kaiju movies, they fit. They're part of it the same way Star Wars' music is its own franchise...

But then jump the fence into Daimajin, and there's the FCTW/WoTG music.
Last edited by Mac Daddy MM on Sun Jul 10, 2022 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.


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plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

Mac Daddy MM wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:58 am Yes, but you don't hear JAWS in Star Wars. You don't hear Star Wars in Jurassic Park.
Yeah, you do. You can hear the herbivore wrangling music from The Lost World in either Phantom Menace or Clones, I don't remember which. Plus I think it was Dooku's theme showed up in Harry Potter 2. Those are just the instances I can remember off the top of my head. All you gotta do is look it up.

You'll also find lots and lots of people saying "did JOHN WILLIAMS STEAL his music?!?!?" all over the place because... he kinda has? But not to the extent that he's a thief. Tbh I'm not much of a fan of Williams. I tend to vibe with like Danny Elfman more, as far as Western movie musicians.
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:44 am I love Final Wars. I praise Final Wars. Simple as.

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