Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

[Voyager]

Aside from appearance, Shin is not all that threatening.

Care to explain? Because I think a constantly evolving invulnerable beast with a myriad of abilities that can regenerate is pretty threatening.

[godjacob]

Aside from appearance, Shin is not all that threatening.

He's perfectly threatening for the film he was in. His ability to adapt and evolve in the presence of threats to his being had humanity on the ropes.

[LegendZilla]

^If Shin displayed a more threatening personality, I might appreciate him more. Instead, he acted like a walking wind-up doll most for most of the time he was on screen. Also, I think that his back and tail lasers are just dumb. The funny thing is that beam-spamming is one thing most people around here like to harp on over the Heisei series, yet why is Shin allowed a free pass when he does the same thing?

[JAGzilla]

Thanks, but off the top of my head, that's about all I have. Aside from my Battra concept I've posted like ten times, anyway. Are you familiar with that one?

Actually I'm not, but it sounds really interesting! Care to post it for an 11th time? I'd love to hear it!

Sure! I have a little bit of an outline posted over on the first page of the "Heisei Kaiju You'd Like to See Reappear" thread, and I'll get some more details typed up and posted in that thread in the morning. No need to drag this thread off on a tangent.

Shin had his own brand of unsettling, unnatural intimidation, and he has the same basic threat any other kaiju poses: he can plow into downtown Tokyo any time he pleases and completely screw Japan's economy, and humanity is very nearly powerless to stop him.

The beam-spamming was okay within the context of that movie, where he was only fighting the military, and the beam scenes were executed with an unusual degree of impressive artistry. But that incarnation of Shin would be boring in an ongoing series. He'd have to evolve a personality and some melee skills before I'd care to see him fight other kaiju.

[godjacob]

^If Shin displayed a more threatening personality, I might appreciate him more. Instead, he acted like a walking wind-up doll most for most of the time he was on screen. Also, I think that his back and tail lasers are just dumb. The funny thing is that beam-spamming is one thing most people around here like to harp on over the Heisei series, yet why is Shin allowed a free pass when he does the same thing?

I mean, Shin's beam spamming directly is important for the story. Which is the big difference, in the Heisei era it was just a special effects choice so they could use bulkier and harder to melee with suits. In this film the beam spamming ties to Shin's evolution and is a weakness of the monster that leads to its defeat.

[LegendZilla]

^I guess literally any idea could work in any story so long as it serves a narrative purpose. I’m guessing the problem people have with the 90’s beam wars was that it was tacked on and came across as gimmicky. It was not so much the aesthetic choice itself.

[Jetty_Jags]

I think most people dislike Heiden beam spamming because it is visually uninteresting, repetitive, and is used in lieu of more complicated/sophisticated fight choreography. With shin Godzilla the beams originating from body parts has an obvious novelty (whether you enjoy it or not), but if he ever reappeared and fought someone and that’s all he used, it would quickly wear off and be equally as repetitive.

[edgaguirus]

Shin's multiple beams show the danger the kaiju poses. Not only does Godzilla rapidly change to meet new challenges but also possesses the ability to blow up half a city without moving. For creating shock and fear, it works. In the Heisei era, the beam wars were used to show off the special effects and compensate for suits that hamper physical combat.

[godjacob]

Alright I got a take that should make me enemies here.

Godzilla vs. Kong (The fights) are not only far better than the classic brawls in King Kong vs. Godzilla, but it is a more enjoyable movie to boot.

[Spuro]

Alright I got a take that should make me enemies here.

Godzilla vs. Kong (The fights) are not only far better than the classic brawls in King Kong vs. Godzilla, but it is a more enjoyable movie to boot.

Well... I'll give you the first point.

The second really depends on the individual's tastes, though.

[godjacob]

Alright I got a take that should make me enemies here.

Godzilla vs. Kong (The fights) are not only far better than the classic brawls in King Kong vs. Godzilla, but it is a more enjoyable movie to boot.

Well... I'll give you the first point.

The second really depends on the individual's tastes, though.

Indeed, and I gave my individual taste on the matter

[KingKong2005]

Alright I got a take that should make me enemies here.

Godzilla vs. Kong (The fights) are not only far better than the classic brawls in King Kong vs. Godzilla, but it is a more enjoyable movie to boot.

Strong, STRONG disagree there. What makes the GvK fights more enjoyable? Round 1 is probably the best because of how dynamic it is, but it's really just Kong getting saved constantly by the humans and fighting out of his element. Round 2 was literally Kong running from the beam with them trading little to no blows in CQC as well as Kong learning how to use a new weapon that did jack. Round 3 is CQC but just a boring one-sided beatdown. The KKvG fight felt like a true confrontation between two kings, one with a shifting power dynamic. GvK only consisted of what felt more like cutscenes then anything else.

Round 1, while of course being a Godzilla win, could have still been much easier on Kong. More blows being traded between the two is a start, Kong utilizing the ship chains to trap and snare Godzilla would have been great (much like how Scylla utilizes her tendrils to wrap Godzilla up in Dominion), Godzilla swimming around Kong while he's on the ship and diving out of the water horizontally to catch Kong would be fantastic (highlighting his intelligence and agility in the water; think the end of the Zimaut KKvG animation or how Godzilla dives over the ship in the Ultima trailer), there's so much that could have been done there to make the fight a lot more investing as opposed to the one-sided beatdown it was. Cut out the humans saving Kong 4 times in that battle alone. Is he a King or some kind of beta titan who bows his head? You know most Kong's are able to hold their breaths underwater for quite some time, animated Kong was able to do it for 20+ minutes due to his sheer lung size and he was only 45 feet tall. While Round 1 still should have gone to Godzilla, it could have been a lot more interesting if Kong was still shown actually holding his own and proving why he is such a tough challenge for Godzilla. Being able to think on the fly and make something out of nothing what with using the carrier chains as weapons as well as jets and pieces of the ship would have been amazing. Kong should have gotten his hits in just as well as Godzilla did before Kong goes down. As for how he survives? Either have him be saved by the humans or maybe show him and Godzilla breaking into the Hollow Earth like Godzilla and Tiamat did in Dominion before the currents get so heavy it separates them both. Either way makes sense, but the point is the shorter and easier the fight is, the less entertaining it is. Sure Round 1 in KKvG was short as well, but it at least made up for that in Round 2.

Round 2 in GvK. Like I said. The time is spent showing Kong just running from the beam. It starts off fantastic, despite Kong missing his hit on Godzilla with the axe (wtf), but Kong shouldn't have had to resort to that weapon to begin with. He should have crafted it from scratch. But okay. With the axe out of the picture, Round 2 is excellent when we see Kong and Godzilla going at it in CQC. The fights should mainly have been H2H. They only go at it for a few seconds then Kong uses his axe which he's still learning, he gets tackled, then he just runs from the beam for the whole fight. That's so lame. Meanwhile in KKvG, Kong is taking the atomic breath like nothing which means it's not a factor in calling the winner of the fight. Why's that important? Well now we have room for some ACTUAL fight choreography between the two monsters. Kong tackling Godzilla, grabbing his tail, getting clawed at, Godzilla dropkicking Kong, Godzilla tail whipping him. The downside of KKvG is Kong knocking himself out like a dumbass. He was doing really well up till that point, which kind of makes the whole fight stupid. Would have been cooler if Godzilla and Kong just had that shifting power dynamic I talked about earlier. The lightning is out of nowhere but fuck at least it's better than Kong getting saved 9 times throughout the whole film in GvK. The two were a lot more evenly matched in KKvG hence why the fight was more entertaining. GvK, meanwhile, is just Kong RUNNING from Godzilla. His only win is based on him recovering faster than Godzilla who was only down for a few seconds. His only win comes from a weapon he barely knew how to use and was from sheer luck. Yes there are some technically great things about Kong in GvK, which stem to powerlevels and how he fares against Godzilla as opposed to the other titans in the MV. But it adds to nothing when Kong gets destroyed effortlessly in Round 3. It adds to nothing when biased Wingard just goes "Oh Godzilla is toying with Kong". You really think that's more entertaining than a fair fight like we had gotten in those 2D animations on YT or KKvG (despite plot working against Kong even in THAT film)? Not a chance. Unless you're a major fan of Godzilla and someone who hates King Kong (not saying you in particular are, Godjacob, but generally speaking about the viewers of the film), then I'm sure you would have been greatly entertained. And that's fine. But what's more entertaining is a fair, longer fight between the two monsters. It'd make both of them not only look better amongst the GA, but it would pay respect to both their character legacies. And this isn't just because I'm a fan of King Kong, that discussion we had a while back regarding powerlevels? I feel the same about monsters like King Ghidorah, Rodan, Mothra, etc. You all know that haha. But this is what I'm talking about. With Godzilla always being enforced by Toho and fanboys like Wingard/Dougherty to be this all powerful being, it truly makes other kaiju like King Kong, King Ghidorah, Rodan, and Mothra feel weak and puny. It takes away the respect they deserve. It makes the fights less entertaining.

Writing-wise, the GvK fights are garbage. Even the fights Kong has that don't involve Godzilla like the Warbats have him constantly getting saved by humans. The MG fight is nothing to rag home about considering the lore indicates Godzilla is incredibly weak and that the kiss of death move would potentially not kill Godzilla. MG fighting a weak Kong and Godzilla is lame. Remember how much of a powerhouse he was in 74 that he took on a fresh Godzilla AND King Caesar? He wrecked them both so badly Godzilla had to pull a power-up out of his ass like he always does in the series. Remember how gory Godzilla was after MG blasted him with his missiles? MG doesn't draw a SINGLE drop of blood from Godzilla in H2H during GvK. And I'm willing to put money on it being a result of Toho constantly meddling with the film and making sure Godzilla is "dA gReAtEsT GoD oF mOnsTerS" like I pointed out a couple pages back with how they've been handling Godzilla since the Millenium Era. There shouldn't be 2D Animations on YouTube that put the GvK film to shame. It should have been the other way around. But hey, mismanagement of a character can do that to ya. So I have to say I strongly disagree about GvK having better fights than KKvG. Like Spuro said, the latter point of it being a better movie is entirely subjective.

[miguelnuva]

The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.

[darthzilla99]

Using outside material to explain what happens in the movies doesn't work because that isn't what the filmmakers do. They aren't involved with the creation of those supplemental works. They make the movies however they're going to make them, and then third party writers try to cobble together explanations and justifications in their comic books. The people making the movies don't read those comics, and certainly don't plan movies around them.

GvK and EHOTD are apples and oranges because of the radically different times and circumstances in which they were made. No one in 1966 was worried about strict continuity between films or Godzilla acting out of character. That just wasn't how movies were made back then. GvK is part of a modern cinematic universe. The entire point of a cinematic universe is consistent continuity from film to film.

That just seems like a lazy excuse to give the Showa era a free pass for at times pissing on its continuity and downright contradicting itself at times.

Holding an old work to new standards instead of making the effort to understand and appreciate that old work on its own terms is the only thing that's lazy here.

I just thought of something else here. Using this same logic, Michael Bay Transformers movies shouldn't be criticized for plot and continuity issues since Bay never intended to focus on plot or continuity. Instead his main intention was to provide great effects work and dynamic cinematography for his films. So therefore only his camera work and special effects can be criticized.

[JAGzilla]

That just seems like a lazy excuse to give the Showa era a free pass for at times pissing on its continuity and downright contradicting itself at times.

Holding an old work to new standards instead of making the effort to understand and appreciate that old work on its own terms is the only thing that's lazy here.

I just thought of something else here. Using this same logic, Michael Bay Transformers movies shouldn't be criticized for plot and continuity issues since Bay never intended to focus on plot or continuity. Instead his main intention was to provide great effects work and dynamic cinematography for his films. So therefore only his camera work and special effects can be criticized.

It's not quite the same logic. I suppose this is a fair take on its own, but it's still apples and oranges. Judging Michael Bay by the filmmaking standards of his own time isn't the same as judging the Showa films by the standards of a time decades later.

[godjacob]

The fights in KK vs Godzilla are just as one sided as Godzilla vs Kong the only difference being Kong turns it around in the end.

They are actually more one sided. That first fight Godzilla straight up humiliates King Kong, makes him flat out tap out and walk away after his atomic breath scares him with Kong not even able to get to Godzilla. The second fight Godzilla KOs Kong two times and Kong is only able to put up a fight because of a Deus Ex Machina thunder storm saving him from death.

In Godzilla vs. Kong, Kong puts up a respectable showing each round. The first fight despite being IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN with Kong beginning the fight with the handicap of starting the fight bound in chains, he's able to show his intellect and knack for improvisation to land a few good hits on Godzilla.

The second fight Kong and Godzilla go blow for blow on each other, Kong even managing to wound Godzilla with his axe and briefly knock his lights out with Godzilla winning after going into hyper intense kill mode. Even then, even on the verge of death Kong refuses to submit to Godzilla the way 99% of creatures would've showing his strength of character from beginning to end.

KKVG Kong is an idiot who I do not get the same nearly level of love and respect for.

[eabaker]

Didn't we just do "KKvsG vs. GvsK"?

Arguing over which movie has better fights is pointless. Both sides were able to make their cases, and the difference was entirely one of aesthetic tastes.

As for overall entertainment value, obviously to each his own/YMMV, but... one is a colorful, lively, tightly paced satire with charismatic leads... the other is a disjointed mess of awkward exposition scenes with isolated moments of beauty and pathos but no compelling through-lines.

[miguelnuva]

I love KKvsG, one of my first Godzilla films I owned and a big influence of me as a kid, nearly wore my VHS out. It puts me tonsleep compared to Godzilla vs Kong.

You can say what you want about Godzilla, but King and Jia hold my attention everytime their on screen and Godzilla stills the show when he does arrive.

[godjacob]

Didn't we just do "KKvsG vs. GvsK"?

Arguing over which movie has better fights is pointless. Both sides were able to make their cases, and the difference was entirely one of aesthetic tastes.

As for overall entertainment value, obviously to each his own/YMMV, but... one is a colorful, lively, tightly paced satire with charismatic leads... the other is a disjointed mess of awkward exposition scenes with isolated moments of beauty and pathos but no compelling through-lines.

I mean, I personally found Jia and Ilene to be some of the strongest characters in a Godzilla film and the story had a bit more heart to it, plus the comedy in KKvG much as I love the film overall is a bit hit or miss for me.

[eabaker]

Didn't we just do "KKvsG vs. GvsK"?

Arguing over which movie has better fights is pointless. Both sides were able to make their cases, and the difference was entirely one of aesthetic tastes.

As for overall entertainment value, obviously to each his own/YMMV, but... one is a colorful, lively, tightly paced satire with charismatic leads... the other is a disjointed mess of awkward exposition scenes with isolated moments of beauty and pathos but no compelling through-lines.

I mean, I personally found Jia and Ilene to be some of the strongest characters in a Godzilla film and the story had a bit more heart to it, plus the comedy in KKvG much as I love the film overall is a bit hit or miss for me.

Sure, those two are well-conceived characters, and play a big part in accomplishing those moments of beauty and pathos I mentioned - I'm certainly not saying the movie has nothing to recommend it! - but they're basically one piece of a puzzle that doesn't really all fit together.