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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
G-Force Lieutenant
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2174
Location: Who walks the Walkmen?
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 Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 8:02 AM Post subject: |
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| chris555 wrote: | | Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | Zillas wrote: | | You don't find any issue with personally killing scores of unarmed civilians? |
It's a video game.
| Zillas wrote: |
I'm sorry, but when I see unarmed people crawling on their knees or dragging the injured while being mercilessly shot to death, I feel sick to my stomach. |
Boo-Freaking-Hoo. Go travel to some African and Asian villiages and then you'll be sick to your stomach 24/7. Because sh1t which is at least ten times worse than this happens Every Single Day there. But for some reason, no one seems to give a flying ******* about those villiagers....well....at least until video games and movies started portraying such stuff in their media.
But, as you so quaintly demonstrated, people just want that "controversal" stuff censored and cut out, because they're so scared of the cold hard truth that they just want to brush it under the carpet and turn a blind eye to what's happening around us.
As a wise man named Colonel Jessep once said: "You can't handle the truth!"
Mass murder is a part of war. Hell, the US killed tens of thousands of civilians when they nuked Japan, twice. And back at the Vietnam War, they killed, tortured, raped, and brutalized hundreds of innocent women and children...all because they felt like it. Face it, this game really shoves you into the ugly part of war. And it's still not what war REALLY is.
To me, this looks like a great level. It captures that brutality and realism of warfare, and it raises the awareness of what's going on outside of our little comfort zone. Trust me, the stuff you saw in that vid is child's play compared to what really happens on the other side of the world. |
Dude...lighten up. He doesn't like seeing people hurt. That's a GOOD THING. just because it goes on doesn't mean people have to be subjected to it if it makes them feel weird. I know this crap happens in wars etc but I'm not scouring the internet looking for videos so i can see ugly reality. It doesn't make me any less of a human.
It's a skippable cutscene for those who don't want to view it. He has that right. Don't try and call him out over it. |
I never said it's good to watch horrid videos of war. But when someone starts playing a rated M game about wars and guns and blood, one expects people to be killed brutally, not sunshine and rainbows and kittens and happy endings.
I'm not forcing Zillas to play anything, that's his right. He can skip it every time he plays that campaign, for all I care. But I don't want people complaining about how a game with the word "Warfare" in the title involves, *gasp*, warfare.
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Zillas
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
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Location: im in ur city stompin' ur g-force
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 10:04 AM Post subject: |
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| Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | Zillas wrote: |
I'm sorry, but when I see unarmed people crawling on their knees or dragging the injured while being mercilessly shot to death, I feel sick to my stomach. |
Boo-Freaking-Hoo. Go travel to some African and Asian villiages and then you'll be sick to your stomach 24/7. Because sh1t which is at least ten times worse than this happens Every Single Day there. |
You're right. Horrors barely conceivable happen daily around the world. That doesn't detract from the imagery in this game
| Quote: | | To me, this looks like a great level. It captures that brutality and realism of warfare, and it raises the awareness of what's going on outside of our little comfort zone. Trust me, the stuff you saw in that vid is child's play compared to what really happens on the other side of the world. |
You want to portray reality in a game? Fine. Then have a cut scene. But by making this level playable, the player is now the one committing the atrocities. Rather than passively watching the carnage and saying "Look at the terrible violence that inhabits this world!", the player is intentionally causing it. Is that really necessary? It doesn't portray reality any more than an unplayable cut scene.
| Quote: | "War is Hell." - Mr. Ristow, US History.
My history teacher said that. Its very much the truth.
It is sick. It is appauling. It is the truth.
As a patriot, Zillas, Im surprised you havent thought about what war is like. You've never seen war pictures? American and Japanese troops, both lying in a crater, torn to peices? The little children in Nam with burns from Agent Orange and napalm. Never heard on the news how US soldiers raped Iraqi women?
War is not nice. War should not be prettied up to make it seem like faceless people are being killed. War just doesnt kill soldiers anymore: it kills everyone |
I have witnessed war as much as any one who has not experienced it first hand. I've watched films of the executions of families, read graphic description of the Viet Cong skinning people alive, seen pictures of black spots on walls left by those incinerated in Hiroshima. I know that war is a time when the evil of men springs up in full force. That is the way things have been since the Assyrians took over the known world. But like I said above, putting it in a first person perspective does nothing to add reality. It only gives the player the option of personally adding to the tragedies of the world.
| Quote: | This Call of Duty game is taking a step that the game medium has to do: Take a step into reality. Not with its graphics. Not with its controls. But with its plots and actions you take for that given situation.
Its not pretty. Its not nice. But it is reality. |
But when is it enough? Today you massacre a multitude of unarmed civilians. Tomorrow you play a torture mini-game. It's "realistic". It portrays reality in a first-person way. Would you play a level where you rape a young girl because it is "realistic"? It is one thing to passively watch horrors and recognize that this is reality. It's another thing to participate in it.
| Quote: | | I'm not forcing Zillas to play anything, that's his right. He can skip it every time he plays that campaign, for all I care. But I don't want people complaining about how a game with the word "Warfare" in the title involves, *gasp*, warfare. |
And make no mistake (not that you are), I'm not judging people if they want to play this level. And I'm not going to rag on IW for including this level. It's their game, they can do what ever they want. Impersonally, I think it was a bad call, knowing that the attacks against this game and others will be in full force. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to play this level. And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about the warfare specifically. I just don't see why it is necessary to include a level with no purpose other than to kill unarmed civilians, something that could have been left up to a passive cut scene.
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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Location: Who walks the Walkmen?
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 10:25 AM Post subject: |
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SPOILER
Oh and by the way, I just saw a high quality of the clip. You're not a terrorist, you're an undercover agent blowing up a Russian airport. However, at the end, it turns out the Russians knew you were undercover all along, and they kill you. They know that when Russia sees your corpse in their airport, they will start a war with the US.
SPOILER
| Zillas wrote: |
You're right. Horrors barely conceivable happen daily around the world. That doesn't detract from the imagery in this game. |
And it never will. I admit, IW took some real balls to make this level. But people who think that this is sadistic and horrible do NOT know what real horror happening right now.
| Quote: | | You want to portray reality in a game? Fine. Then have a cut scene. But by making this level playable, the player is now the one committing the atrocities. Rather than passively watching the carnage and saying "Look at the terrible violence that inhabits this world!", the player is intentionally causing it. Is that really necessary? |
Have you ever played Grand Theft Auto 3? You basically do the same thing in that game. And I don't see gamer throwing a hissy-fit about it.
| Quote: | | It doesn't portray reality any more than an unplayable cut scene. |
Oh, yes it does. It REALLY does. Ever seen a movie about a man killing someone in cold blood? Of course you have. It's nowhere close to actually being the one actually pointing the gun and pulling the trigger. So IW decided to boost the awareness about the atrocities of war by actually giving you the option of participating in it. When you see terrorists mowing down civilians, you think "Oh man, that sucks." But when YOU'RE the one mowing them down, you think "Holy *******, war is truly hell." See, we have been softened up by the other war games that try to sugar-coat and hide the ugly side of war. This level is a slap to the face, and quite a necessary one as well.
| Quote: | | But like I said above, putting it in a first person perspective does nothing to add reality. It only gives the player the option of personally adding to the tragedies of the world. |
See above.
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But when is it enough? Today you massacre a multitude of unarmed civilians. Tomorrow you play a torture mini-game. It's "realistic". It portrays reality in a first-person way. Would you play a level where you rape a young girl because it is "realistic"? It is one thing to passively watch horrors and recognize that this is reality. It's another thing to participate in it. |
"There's a fine line between virtual reality and reality. We have to be careful not to cross it."- Gameinformer
You have a point there. But let me counter that. How many war games have you played that actually gave you a taste of the ugly side of war? Hell, 80% of all shooter games don't even have cutscenes of civilians dying or sadistic crimes. It's all happy endings, valiant heroes, and a balck-and-white view of good and bad.
But CoD goes "Screw that, let's give them something more realistic." And out comes this (optional) level. And since you're actually participating in it, you get a first-hand look at the grittiness of real battle and death. Just be happy that its optional.
However, as you said, there comes a time when enough is enough. Participating in torture or rape, to me, is crossing the line. But mowing down an airport full of people, and giving them relatively quick deaths, is still within boundaries. It's close to crossing, but still within the line.
| Quote: | | And make no mistake (not that you are), I'm not judging people if they want to play this level. And I'm not going to rag on IW for including this level. It's their game, they can do what ever they want. Impersonally, I think it was a bad call, knowing that the attacks against this game and others will be in full force. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to play this level. And just to be clear, I'm not complaining about the warfare specifically. I just don't see why it is necessary to include a level with no purpose other than to kill unarmed civilians, something that could have been left up to a passive cut scene. |
We don't know how much it deals with the plot. For all I know, it's a huge plot twist. But as I said, participation and observation are totally different things.
Not to mention other games include some of this stuff as well, and it's not just Grand Theft Auto. In Splinter Cell: Double Agent, you stab and shoot innocent civilians and security guards. Then you blow up a cruise ship containing 2000 lives. In Ultimate Spider-Man, you are required to play as Venom, in which you roam around the streets and grab civilians and suck out their body fluids. Hell, you can still hear them screaming for help and pleading while you kill them! Is that not the same thing as shooting down people?
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Zillas
G-Grasper
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1876
Location: im in ur city stompin' ur g-force
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 12:20 PM Post subject: |
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Well, it seems that we just have a disagreement as to what is the line not to be crossed. I have no taste for games like Grand Theft Auto. I guess I just don't like to be the bad guy.
All this talk about death is making me depressed. 
Sniper rifles with heartbeat sensors. What will they think up next?
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 12:37 PM Post subject: |
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| Zillas wrote: | Well, it seems that we just have a disagreement as to what is the line not to be crossed. I have no taste for games like Grand Theft Auto. I guess I just don't like to be the bad guy.
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Oh......then ignore anything else I said. I just assumed you liked other violent games, like GTA.
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SuperSaiyan4Godzilla
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Joined: 25 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03 2009 5:58 PM Post subject: |
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| Zillas wrote: |
| Quote: | "War is Hell." - Mr. Ristow, US History.
My history teacher said that. Its very much the truth.
It is sick. It is appauling. It is the truth.
As a patriot, Zillas, Im surprised you havent thought about what war is like. You've never seen war pictures? American and Japanese troops, both lying in a crater, torn to peices? The little children in Nam with burns from Agent Orange and napalm. Never heard on the news how US soldiers raped Iraqi women?
War is not nice. War should not be prettied up to make it seem like faceless people are being killed. War just doesnt kill soldiers anymore: it kills everyone |
I have witnessed war as much as any one who has not experienced it first hand. I've watched films of the executions of families, read graphic description of the Viet Cong skinning people alive, seen pictures of black spots on walls left by those incinerated in Hiroshima. I know that war is a time when the evil of men springs up in full force. That is the way things have been since the Assyrians took over the known world. But like I said above, putting it in a first person perspective does nothing to add reality. It only gives the player the option of personally adding to the tragedies of the world.
| Quote: | This Call of Duty game is taking a step that the game medium has to do: Take a step into reality. Not with its graphics. Not with its controls. But with its plots and actions you take for that given situation.
Its not pretty. Its not nice. But it is reality. |
But when is it enough? Today you massacre a multitude of unarmed civilians. Tomorrow you play a torture mini-game. It's "realistic". It portrays reality in a first-person way. Would you play a level where you rape a young girl because it is "realistic"? It is one thing to passively watch horrors and recognize that this is reality. It's another thing to participate in it. |
If it was a reality. If people are appauled by it...
There's already been enough.
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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Location: Who walks the Walkmen?
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 8:20 AM Post subject: |
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Just pre-ordered this bitch for PS3, since I don't have Live
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Proofpoochie
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Joined: 07 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 9:59 PM Post subject: |
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| Zillas wrote: |
All this talk about death is making me depressed. |
You realize this game is about killing, right?
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GinoKing
E.S.P.Spy
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 10:54 PM Post subject: |
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Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******.
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 10:55 PM Post subject: |
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| GinoKing wrote: | | Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******. |
How exactly? 
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GinoKing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 11:38 PM Post subject: |
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| Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******. |
How exactly? |
I guess some of it comes down to not my cup of tea, not a fan of twitch shooters, but Im not the only one who is complaining about the following:
1. For most playlists on the 360 version it will kick you out of an Xbox Live party, something Gold members pay for.
2.Alot of bad multiplayer changes IMO. Dual wielding stuff like MP5s, shooting off the hip is alot more accurate. Killstreaks that end the game, can be really unfair
3.PC version is limited so much for how PC owners expect it
4.This delves back into our old debate, but IMO, the killing civilians is not for moving the medium forward, its for shock value and free publicity.
5.Not having online splitscreen or 4 player co op in SpecOps is weak sauce
Again, alot of it boils down to not my cup of tea, which is disappointing, as I am in need of a new MP game.
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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Location: Who walks the Walkmen?
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 11:50 PM Post subject: |
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| GinoKing wrote: | | Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******. |
How exactly? |
2.Alot of bad multiplayer changes IMO. Dual wielding stuff like MP5s, shooting off the hip is alot more accurate. Killstreaks that end the game, can be really unfair
5.Not having online splitscreen or 4 player co op in SpecOps is weak sauce
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Not really sure about the 360 playlist issue, since I had no problems with the original MW. And I don't own a PC, so I can't debate on that. And, as you said, we've beaten the dead horse on this whole civilian casualty thing.
However, dual-wielding I've learned only works if you're a just few feet in front of the enemy. Go even moderately far, and you might as well spit at your opponent. For killstreaks, if you're refering to the tactical nuclear strike, I'm sure that's either a rumor or got incredibly dumbed-down to makes things just a little bit fair. Never heard of hip-shooting being more accurate though.
And I have to agree with the no online splitscreen or 4-player SpecOps, but I'm still interested in what other stuff SpecOps has to offer. Still, I'm not gonna hold it to you if it isn't "your cup of tea".
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GinoKing
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04 2009 11:54 PM Post subject: |
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| Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******. |
How exactly? |
2.Alot of bad multiplayer changes IMO. Dual wielding stuff like MP5s, shooting off the hip is alot more accurate. Killstreaks that end the game, can be really unfair
5.Not having online splitscreen or 4 player co op in SpecOps is weak sauce
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Not really sure about the 360 playlist issue, since I had no problems with the original MW. |
Cause its new to MW2, and it sucks if you're talking to other friends at the time. Nuke is confirmed, I saw a vid, its pretty stupid. I also don't like the controlling the gun in the copter,as it shows you red lines of the enemies, so you can pretty much kill anyone at all times. I alos saw a vid where a guy was owning with dual wields.
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Spirit Ghidorah 2004
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Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05 2009 12:02 AM Post subject: |
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| GinoKing wrote: | | Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Spirit Ghidorah 2004 wrote: | | GinoKing wrote: | | Meh, civilians or not, this game will be *******. |
How exactly? |
2.Alot of bad multiplayer changes IMO. Dual wielding stuff like MP5s, shooting off the hip is alot more accurate. Killstreaks that end the game, can be really unfair
5.Not having online splitscreen or 4 player co op in SpecOps is weak sauce
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Not really sure about the 360 playlist issue, since I had no problems with the original MW. |
Cause its new to MW2, and it sucks if you're talking to other friends at the time. Nuke is confirmed, I saw a vid, its pretty stupid. I also don't like the controlling the gun in the copter,as it shows you red lines of the enemies, so you can pretty much kill anyone at all times. I alos saw a vid where a guy was owning with dual wields. |
Oh yeah, the tactical nuke is for a 25 killstreak. But in all honesty, when someone gets 25 kills in a freaking row without dying, the match might as well be over. No one I've played against has ever gotten that many kills yet.
As for duel-wielding, like I said, it only works if you're at most ten feet in front of your opponents, since it's as accurate as the sperm from a blind guy with erectile dysfunction.
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