Monster Discussion #47: Battra

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GotengoXGodzilla
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

Being under control isn't part of the bare bones, and nor is being a symbol of nuclear terror.
I'm talking about concept here, not bare bones.
At bare bones, Godzilla is a giant nuclear dinosaur. Nothing more.
And at bare bones, MechaGodzilla is a robot. Robot =/= Giant Nuclear Dinosaur. Therefore, at bare bones, MechaGodzilla =/= Godzilla.

Thanks for proving yourself wrong.
And if that's really all your concept of Battra is, then I'm correct. Battra is evil Mothra, MechaGodzilla is robot Godzilla.
What are you talking about? You're correct about what?

As far as I can tell, you haven't debunked anything I've said: The concept of Godzilla is different from the concept of MechaGodzilla, but the concept of Battra is the same as the concept of Mothra.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by KaneLocke »

Ah, a GxG argument. To think I didn't miss it in his absence.

Lemme show you how his argument works, GxG. Godzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. Mechagodzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. At the conceptual level, both are unstoppable walking weapons. The only difference is Godzilla is a metaphorical weapon.

Battra is not conceptually the same as Mothra. Mothra protects the people AND the planet, Battra protects only the planet.

But I fail to see the point in arguing it. Few of the Heisei monsters actually received actual CHARACTERIZATION. Battra, Mothra, Rodan, Destroyah... All of them were shallow and skin deep. They sucked on a character level.

See, I was never arguing the character. I took 'concept' as a reference to the aesthetic design of the creature.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

Lemme show you how his argument works, GxG. Godzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. Mechagodzilla is a walking engine of total destruction. At the conceptual level, both are unstoppable walking weapons. The only difference is Godzilla is a metaphorical weapon.
Except that I disagree with that, because both Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are more than just walking engines of total destruction. They each have their own individuality, which differentiates them from one another. The main one, for me anyway, is that MechaGodzilla is a tool, whereas Godzilla is free to do whatever he wants.
Battra is not conceptually the same as Mothra. Mothra protects the people AND the planet, Battra protects only the planet.
They're both protecting something very similar on a grand scale, and that's what I'm looking at.
But I fail to see the point in arguing it. Few of the Heisei monsters actually received actual CHARACTERIZATION. Battra, Mothra, Rodan, Destroyah... All of them were shallow and skin deep. They sucked on a character level.
One of the many reasons why I don't like the Heisei series.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Breakdown »

MechaGodzilla is a tool
Kiryu is a sentinent being bound by human control. Without human control, hes basically Godzilla with a metal exterior. Hes has the skeleton of a deceased Godzilla and effort was obviously put into making him look like the organic counterpart. Heisei MG is the same principal. He was created in Godzilla's image and with a similar purpose to be a weapon of destruction except to be used against Kaiju rather than humans. At the very most, they have a similar concept, not two completely unrelated concepts as you say.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

Gyaos wrote:
MechaGodzilla is a tool
Kiryu is a sentinent being bound by human control. Without human control, hes basically Godzilla with a metal exterior. Hes has the skeleton of a deceased Godzilla and effort was obviously put into making him look like the organic counterpart. Heisei MG is the same principal. He was created in Godzilla's image and with a similar purpose to be a weapon of destruction except to be used against Kaiju rather than humans. At the very most, they have a similar concept, not two completely unrelated concepts as you say.
...Okay, now you're just nitpicking my words.

Kiryu is still a tool of the JSDF. The same with Heisei MechaGodzilla, and Showa MechaGodzilla. All three are used by the people who created them to do what they please. For Showa MG, its destroy all of humanity. For Heisei MG and Kiryu, its defend the earth from kaiju. Without their operators, they wouldn't do anything. I'm not looking at how their designs are similar to Godzilla, but how MechaGodzilla is used.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by TheDarkone »

I have an odd feeling that if the two weren't related or similar then "mechagodzilla" would be a poor name choice :/

Anyway, I feel battra was cool and all but not nearly as impacting as other monsters. When i think of him i think of a movie i saw wayback when i was a kid or w.e
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Breakdown »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote: ...Okay, now you're just nitpicking my words.

Kiryu is still a tool of the JSDF. The same with Heisei MechaGodzilla, and Showa MechaGodzilla. All three are used by the people who created them to do what they please. For Showa MG, its destroy all of humanity.For Heisei MG and Kiryu, its defend the earth from kaiju. Without their operators, they wouldn't do anything. I'm not looking at how their designs are similar to Godzilla, but how MechaGodzilla is used.
No. Kiryu can go against his operators while acting independently and has done so twice. Mechagodzilla is used in the same way as Godzilla except in a more belevolent purpose.

Godzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks and destroys humanity along with the occasional monster.

Mechagodzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks Godzilla and the occasional monster.

Yeah, ultimatly they're diffrent but overall their purpose and concept is the same
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by KaneLocke »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Except that I disagree with that, because both Godzilla and MechaGodzilla are more than just walking engines of total destruction. They each have their own individuality, which differentiates them from one another. The main one, for me anyway, is that MechaGodzilla is a tool, whereas Godzilla is free to do whatever he wants.
So, first of all, your defintions are contradicting themselves. You're being overly specific here, for no other purpose than being right, whereas below, you're being overly general... so you can be right.

But the fact is, they're identical. They're both weapons of mass destruction. Their 'purpose' is irrelevent; on a conceptual level, they are truly no different. Massive, incredibly dangerous weapons. You're the one nitpicking details here.
They're both protecting something very similar on a grand scale, and that's what I'm looking at.
In that case, with such a general 'definition', NO monsters are truly different. On a grand scale, most monsters exist for the same purpose, and by your definition, are bad concepts then.

Before you continue this argument, pick a stance: look at the general idea of the monsters (IE Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla concepts) or the specific idea (Mothra Vs. Battra concepts).

For the record, I find Mechagodzilla is nothing like Godzilla. It is the details that make them different. You're using two different arguments for the same thing. That's why everyone is, for lack of a better term, ganging up on you. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your rationalizations.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

No. Kiryu can go against his operators while acting independently and has done so twice
Again, you're nitpicking my words.
Godzilla: Weapon created by humans.
...No they didn't. They woke him up, but they didn't create him.
Godzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks and destroys humanity along with the occasional monster.

Mechagodzilla: Weapon created by humans. Attacks Godzilla and the occasional monster.

Yeah, ultimatly they're diffrent but overall their purpose and concept is the same
How many times do have to say this?

In concept, MechaGodzilla and Godzilla are vastly different. MechaGodzilla is a robot, created by humans/aliens and is then used by those same people for their own purposes. Last I checked, Godzilla isn't a robot, nor is he used by someone else for their own purpose. :roll:

As for purpose, Godzilla does whatever he wants. MechaGodzilla, on the other hand, is to defend or attack humanity (depending on the era).
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Breakdown »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:...No they didn't. They woke him up, but they didn't create him.
You fail. Heisei Godzilla was CREATED by humans via nuclear testing.

Last I checked, Godzilla isn't a robot, nor is he used by someone else for their own purpose.
Then clearly you need to rewatch Destroy all Monsters, Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla and Godzilla vs Monster Zero. In all those examples I listed, Godzilla was under mind control and was being used for another party's purpose. Again I bring up Kiryu. Hes is the original Godzilla ressurected and augmented via technology and put under HUMAN CONTROL to do their bidding. So in a sense, yes, Godzilla (54) is a robot.
MechaGodzilla, on the other hand, is to defend or attack humanity (depending on the era).
Once again, I bring up Kiryu. He can do whatever he pleases when not under restraint.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by JVM »

Well the created by weapons aspect wasn't so much my point as much as that every incarnation of MechaGodzilla is a robot that is based in design on Godzilla, and thus is, visually speaking, a robot Godzilla.

I really doubt Tomoyuki Tanka's idea for the 1974 Godzilla film was just, "Godzilla fights a giant robot!"
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by edgaguirus »

Battra is meant to be the yin to Mothra's yang. It creates the old story of opposing forces that happen to be similar and/or related, and sets up the plot twist of cooperation in the end.

Now can we get away from Godzilla and MG, and focus on Battra.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

But the fact is, they're identical.
...Last I checked, ones made of metal and the other is made of flesh. How is that "identical"?
They're both weapons of mass destruction. Their 'purpose' is irrelevent; on a conceptual level, they are truly no different. Massive, incredibly dangerous weapons.
Now whose the one being incredibly vague in the most broadest sense of the word?

Going by that logic, every kaiju is identical then. That's why I'm being as specific as possible.
In that case, with such a general 'definition', NO monsters are truly different. On a grand scale, most monsters exist for the same purpose, and by your definition, are bad concepts then.
...Except that most kaiju don't protect anything. Only certain ones do, like Mothra and Battra. Others protect, but only a small scale, like MechaGodzilla. Others destroy, like Space Godzilla and Gigan. Some just do whatever they want to do, like Godzilla, Rodan and Gorosaurus.
You're using two different arguments for the same thing. That's why everyone is, for lack of a better term, ganging up on you. I'm merely pointing out the flaw in your rationalizations.
Here's the reason why I'm being general on one concept, and vague on another.

Daikaiju like Godzilla, Mothra and MechaGodzilla have been around for years, and in many films. In those films, they evolve and change as characters/creatures. Being vague on describing them would be an insult to their character.

However, Battra has only been in one film, where we were told almost nothing about him. I don't see how I can generally talk about a daikaiju that has no character, other than being a cracked mirror image of another Toho daikaiju, and was hardly even in the one film he starred in.

I understand that I'm being very general with Godzilla and MechaGodzilla, while being very specific with Battra and Mothra. But, I see no problem with it. Its simply a difference between viewing characters that have a long history against viewing characters that have no history at all.
You fail. Heisei Godzilla was CREATED by humans via nuclear testing.
I'm talking about Showa Godzilla. :roll:
Then clearly you need to rewatch Destroy all Monsters, Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla and Godzilla vs Monster Zero. In all those examples I listed, Godzilla was under mind control and was being used for another party's purpose.
Ugh. See this is what I mean by nitpicking. What you're doing here, clinging to the tiniest of examples is REALLY annoying.

I'm not talking about every single little second of the entire franchise. In this instance, I'm talking about the majority of the franchise, where Godzilla isn't being used by someone else.

Seriously, I didn't think I needed to spell that out for you. :roll: :roll:
Again I bring up Kiryu. Hes is the original Godzilla ressurected and augmented via technology and put under HUMAN CONTROL to do their bidding. So in a sense, yes, Godzilla (54) is a robot.
And that comes into play for all of five minutes in a film made almost 50 years after the original film. I don't think Tomoyuki Tanaka made Gojira with the intention of having Godzilla be a robot.

Really, I don't give a shit if Kiryu was designed around the bones of the original Godzilla. He's MechaGodzilla, first and for most, especially in the terms of this argument.

And if you're really going to be so nitpicky about how there are Godzilla bones inside of Kiryu, then there are still two other MechaGodzilla's to talk about. :roll: :roll: :roll:
Once again, I bring up Kiryu. He can do whatever he pleases when not under restraint.
I stand by my statement, since even Kiryu's purpose is to defend humanity. It doesn't matter if they lost control for five minutes of the film, it doesn't defeat MechaGodzilla's purpose. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Wow, four eye rolls. Must be a new record. Congratulations Gyaos!
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Breakdown »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:I'm talking about Showa Godzilla.
Yeah but we're not talking about the Showa Godzilla. I dont even know where you came up with Showa Godzilla, you brought that up out of nowhere.
And if you're really going to be so nitpicky about how there are Godzilla bones inside of Kiryu, then there are still two other MechaGodzilla's to talk about.
Im using Kiryu as an example and incase you hadn't noticed, I refrenced all 3 throughout my argument. Read my posts before you sound like a jackass.
And that comes into play for all of five minutes
So Kiryu was a technologically ressurected Godzilla for only 5 minutes? With statements like this, I find it incredibly hard not to point them out.
Wow, four eye rolls. Must be a new record. Congratulations Gyaos!
Atleast I got praised for something. All I see you doing is getting ridiculed half the time. Kaiju regen is a form of dodging? That statement alone makes it hard for me to give you any credibility in your arguments.


Im just going to stop here before this thread goes downhill even further.

Battra's a cool monster, kickass design except the Imago form (Didnt like the head too much)
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by KaneLocke »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Going by that logic, every kaiju is identical then. That's why I'm being as specific as possible.
Fairly certain that's EXACTLY what I said.
In that case, with such a general 'definition', NO monsters are truly different. On a grand scale, most monsters exist for the same purpose, and by your definition, are bad concepts then.
...Except that most kaiju don't protect anything. Only certain ones do, like Mothra and Battra. Others protect, but only a small scale, like MechaGodzilla. Others destroy, like Space Godzilla and Gigan. Some just do whatever they want to do, like Godzilla, Rodan and Gorosaurus.
I understand that I'm being very general with Godzilla and MechaGodzilla, while being very specific with Battra and Mothra. But, I see no problem with it. Its simply a difference between viewing characters that have a long history against viewing characters that have no history at all.
Battra was given as much character as any one-shot monster can be given. What you obviously fail to understand is the idea of 'the devil is in the details.'

The DETAILS make the monsters different. You're not giving Battra even remotely a fair shake by saying, "Oh, he's just a cracked mirror Mothra." Funny thing is that he was hardly represented as that in the film (which is really a sign of poor writing, ya ask me). He was represented as a destructive force reaping vengeance on mankind for destroying the planet.

You complain about having a lack of character in Battra, and that he's a Mothra clone on a conceptual level... But how do you have a clone of a non-existent concept? Mothra was given less characterization in that film than any other he's ever been in. He was a lot more of a giant plot device than anything. At least Battra had a point that he actively pursued throughout the film. He was going to protect the planet, not the people. Godzilla was a threat to the planet, so he teamed up with Mothra.

As a physical concept, yes, Battra is a dark Mothra. On every other level, Battra is a fairly original concept, ESPECIALLY for a series like the Heisei series.
I'm talking about Showa Godzilla. :roll:
Showa Godzilla was still created by nukes, dude.
Seriously, I didn't think I needed to spell that out for you. :roll: :roll:
Get off your high horse and stop being a douche. Learn how to argue without being a dick and you won't annoy the piss outta everyone.
Really, I don't give a shit if Kiryu was designed around the bones of the original Godzilla. He's MechaGodzilla, first and for most, especially in the terms of this argument.
Kiryu is nothing more than Godzilla with a robotic skin. He's not so much a robot as a cyborg. Either which way, he shares more similarities with a kaiju than an anti-kaiju robot.
Wow, four eye rolls. Must be a new record. Congratulations Gyaos!
Must be a record for you, too. I've never seen you look like such a dick in your entire tenure here.

Congratulations on failing.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by shinmattiathekaiju »

KaneLocke wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:Going by that logic, every kaiju is identical then. That's why I'm being as specific as possible.
Fairly certain that's EXACTLY what I said.
In that case, with such a general 'definition', NO monsters are truly different. On a grand scale, most monsters exist for the same purpose, and by your definition, are bad concepts then.
...Except that most kaiju don't protect anything. Only certain ones do, like Mothra and Battra. Others protect, but only a small scale, like MechaGodzilla. Others destroy, like Space Godzilla and Gigan. Some just do whatever they want to do, like Godzilla, Rodan and Gorosaurus.
I understand that I'm being very general with Godzilla and MechaGodzilla, while being very specific with Battra and Mothra. But, I see no problem with it. Its simply a difference between viewing characters that have a long history against viewing characters that have no history at all.
Battra was given as much character as any one-shot monster can be given. What you obviously fail to understand is the idea of 'the devil is in the details.'

The DETAILS make the monsters different. You're not giving Battra even remotely a fair shake by saying, "Oh, he's just a cracked mirror Mothra." Funny thing is that he was hardly represented as that in the film (which is really a sign of poor writing, ya ask me). He was represented as a destructive force reaping vengeance on mankind for destroying the planet.

You complain about having a lack of character in Battra, and that he's a Mothra clone on a conceptual level... But how do you have a clone of a non-existent concept? Mothra was given less characterization in that film than any other he's ever been in. He was a lot more of a giant plot device than anything. At least Battra had a point that he actively pursued throughout the film. He was going to protect the planet, not the people. Godzilla was a threat to the planet, so he teamed up with Mothra.

As a physical concept, yes, Battra is a dark Mothra. On every other level, Battra is a fairly original concept, ESPECIALLY for a series like the Heisei series.
I'm talking about Showa Godzilla. :roll:
Showa Godzilla was still created by nukes, dude.
Seriously, I didn't think I needed to spell that out for you. :roll: :roll:
Get off your high horse and stop being a douche. Learn how to argue without being a dick and you won't annoy the piss outta everyone.
Really, I don't give a shit if Kiryu was designed around the bones of the original Godzilla. He's MechaGodzilla, first and for most, especially in the terms of this argument.
Kiryu is nothing more than Godzilla with a robotic skin. He's not so much a robot as a cyborg. Either which way, he shares more similarities with a kaiju than an anti-kaiju robot.
Wow, four eye rolls. Must be a new record. Congratulations Gyaos!
Must be a record for you, too. I've never seen you look like such a dick in your entire tenure here.

Congratulations on failing.
Wow,good on you KaneLocke,you truly did a good criticism to GotengoXGodzilla arrogant and wrong post(how can Showa Godzilla not be created by nukes?)that i would never be able to do.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by GotengoXGodzilla »

All I see you doing is getting ridiculed half the time. Kaiju regen is a form of dodging? That statement alone makes it hard for me to give you any credibility in your arguments.
...You do realize that that was a long ass time ago, and that I've actually changed since then, right?
Battra was given as much character as any one-shot monster can be given.
...Yeah...One speech saying, "Battra was once good, but now he's become evil." Not much of a character.
You're not giving Battra even remotely a fair shake by saying, "Oh, he's just a cracked mirror Mothra." Funny thing is that he was hardly represented as that in the film (which is really a sign of poor writing, ya ask me). He was represented as a destructive force reaping vengeance on mankind for destroying the planet.
I agree that he could have been more, but the writing for Godzilla and Mothra makes him come off as unoriginal (and uninteresting).
You complain about having a lack of character in Battra, and that he's a Mothra clone on a conceptual level... But how do you have a clone of a non-existent concept? Mothra was given less characterization in that film than any other he's ever been in. He was a lot more of a giant plot device than anything. At least Battra had a point that he actively pursued throughout the film. He was going to protect the planet, not the people. Godzilla was a threat to the planet, so he teamed up with Mothra.
...Except that Mothra has a long standing history before that film. Even before the Heisei series started, Mothra has a character that had been set up in plenty of other films. So yeah, Mothra has plenty of characterization, just not in that film.
Kiryu is nothing more than Godzilla with a robotic skin. He's not so much a robot as a cyborg. Either which way, he shares more similarities with a kaiju than an anti-kaiju robot.
I stand by what I said: He's MechaGodzilla. He was built by the JSDF to defend the world from kaiju. That's what he'll always be to me.
I've never seen you look like such a dick in your entire tenure here.
If people like Gyaos would stop pissing me the fuck off, then maybe I wouldn't have been such a dick in that post.

But, I'm done with this argument. It's gone on too long, and it's getting no where. If all you guys are going to do now is just say how much a douche I am for reasons that I'm not even sure about, then I don't want to participate in this fiasco. I've made my point, and I stand by what I've said about Battra.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by EikoHarvey »

GotengoXGodzilla wrote:If people like Gyaos would stop pissing me the skreeonk off, then maybe I wouldn't have been suck a dick in that post.
.....

Anyway.
I wonder how far my Battra joke really went at G-Fest this year.
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Gojira21 »

EikoHarvey wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:If people like Gyaos would stop pissing me the skreeonk off, then maybe I wouldn't have been suck a dick in that post.
.....

Anyway.
I wonder how far my Battra joke really went at G-Fest this year.

What was the joke?
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Re: Monster Discussion #47: Battra

Post by Battragon »

Gojira21 wrote:
EikoHarvey wrote:
GotengoXGodzilla wrote:If people like Gyaos would stop pissing me the skreeonk off, then maybe I wouldn't have been suck a dick in that post.
.....

Anyway.
I wonder how far my Battra joke really went at G-Fest this year.

What was the joke?
That Battra is the franchise's Chuck Norris.

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