How did Bagan end up in Super Godzilla?

[Desghidorah]

(I was unsure if this would belong here or in video games so any moderators feel free to change this)

Bagan arguably has the most storied history of anything that never managed to even make it into a movie. Be it from it having many different incarnations or being a favorite go-to character by Tanaka, whether you like it or you hate it you do have to admit it is pretty memorable. And arguably the main reason most of us know about the darn thing is because it was given the role of Final Boss in the game Super Godzilla.

The question I have however is why exactly? I know there had to have been communication between a game designers and the movie concept designers given that Super Godzilla ended up at the template for SpaceGodzilla, but has anyone ever actually track down the reason Bagan showed up where it did?

[GigaBowserG]

Absolutely no idea. Tanaka isn't even credited in the game. There's special thanks to Shogo Tomiyama and Koichi Kawakita, so perhaps they had some input. The weirdest part to me is why they decided to change his design, he was supposed to look like this (Yasushi Nirasawa) in Mothra vs. Bagan, but they went with another design (Minoru Yoshida). Too evil for kiddos, perhaps.

His inclusion in that game is one giant question mark, same goes for Godzilla Movie Studio Tour and Dogolas.

[Desghidorah]

Absolutely no idea. Tanaka isn't even credited in the game. There's special thanks to Shogo Tomiyama and Koichi Kawakita, so perhaps they had some input. The weirdest part to me is why they decided to change his design, he was supposed to look like this (Yasushi Nirasawa) in Mothra vs. Bagan, but they went with another design (Minoru Yoshida). Too evil for kiddos, perhaps.

His inclusion in that game is one giant question mark, same goes for Godzilla Movie Studio Tour and Dogolas.

Perhaps the Yoshida design was commissioned by Tanaka for potential use when he was once again spitballing the idea of Bagan being in the final Heisei film? It is about the same shape, just different colors, as the Movie Studio figurine. I dunno, would have to check the timelines given I know the script Bagan was slated to appear in was a rework of that Varan script. Figuring out the process of events in 1993 Toho is insane sometimes.

Super Godzilla does have that weirdness quality of having unused concepts in it, given some info about the unnamed alien indicating it's possibly a lost Showa age concept. I mean, the US distributors took the effort of changing Mechagodzilla and yet for some odd reason they didn't touch Bagan. Confidence he'd be in a movie eventually perhaps?

[LSD Jellyfish]

To spitball, the design chosen for the final game looks more like an amalgamation of Ghidorah and Godzilla. The stance (shorter arms, bottom heavy physique, and long tail) appears more similar to Godzilla than the other design. Additionally, the horns and "frill" look more similar to Ghidorah. While it doesn't look like a clone of Godzilla or Ghidorah, in universe it seems easier to justify that the final Bagan design used derives from both Godzilla and Ghidorah. Doesn't answer how it got in though.

[Desghidorah]

To spitball, the design chosen for the final game looks more like an amalgamation of Ghidorah and Godzilla. The stance (shorter arms, bottom heavy physique, and long tail) appears more similar to Godzilla than the other design. Additionally, the horns and "frill" look more similar to Ghidorah. While it doesn't look like a clone of Godzilla or Ghidorah, in universe it seems easier to justify that the final Bagan design used derives from both Godzilla and Ghidorah. Doesn't answer how it got in though.

Hmm, you're not at all wrong. Though would beg the question of why they used the design they did given the arm-winged, more demonic looking design from Mothra vs. Bagan probably would fit the description more. Still, if perhaps the game was trying to have a Ghidorah-Godzilla hybrid as the final boss; it could be that concept existed before they brought in Bagan.


**EDIT**

Consulting some of the developments at the time, I've run into another oddity. So Super Godzilla was being made from 1992 into very late 1993 for release that year, meaning its dev-time at least somewhat overlapped with Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla. There had to have been some communication between the two productions as SpaceGodzilla's design evolved from this as "AstroGodzilla"


to this


And this is Super Godzilla's concept art-



Now look back to AstroGodzilla and keep in mind, there were many concepts for the look but many shared certain features like
-Twin tails
-Wings
-Dragon-like face
-Curved horns

Tell me, which one looks more like a Godzilla-Ghidorah hybrid? That or Bagan? And to my knowledge, none of the Bagan scripts involved any gene splicing with the kings. Now clearly the makers of the SNES game knew of the Bagan scripts as several elements (ancient Chinese origin, the attacks, and use by aliens) were carried over, but what if this was a late change? What if, to promote the new movie, the final boss was supposed to be AstroGodzilla? But when the AstroGodzilla script got reworked and the design changed [likely with time of the essence given they literally just put Crystals on Super Godzilla], the developers for the game redid their ending. They weren't sure on what changes might be involved going from AstroGodzilla into SpaceGodzilla, so they used an unused monster they already had a design and moveset ready. I got no statements to verify this but the timelines do match up.

So in this crazy rollercoaster of a storied history Bagan has, it might have finally gotten its day in the limelight by replacing another lost/reworked project.

[Terasawa]

While the supposed AstroGodzilla concept (not labeled as “AstroGodzilla” anywhere on the image itself) certainly has Godzilla and Ghidorah elements, I think you have some things backwards.

I’m not entirely sure how video game programming schedules played out in the early 1990s, but I do know the Heisei Godzilla movies were developed during winter and and spring, shot over the summer, and released in December (rinse and repeat from 1992-2004). GvSG thus only entered development in the very last part of 1993, around the time Super Godzilla would have been nearing release. It seems totally improbable that developers would have gone back to the game and programmed in a new character (especially the final boss) in that short a timeframe.

I discussed SpaceGodzilla’s evolution from Super Godzilla in this thread a few months ago. IMO, there’s no reason to believe the Super Godzilla game or character were influenced by work done on the Godzilla movie intended for a December 1994 release; the timelines don’t line up at all. Instead, it seems likely that Toho’s SFX personnel turned to elements from the video game’s development because they were already working overtime planning Yamato Takeru at the same time.

[Desghidorah]

While the supposed AstroGodzilla concept (not labeled as “AstroGodzilla” anywhere on the image itself) certainly has Godzilla and Ghidorah elements, I think you have some things backwards.

I’m not entirely sure how video game programming schedules played out in the early 1990s, but I do know the Heisei Godzilla movies were developed during winter and and spring, shot over the summer, and released in December (rinse and repeat from 1992-2004). GvSG thus only entered development in the very last part of 1993, around the time Super Godzilla would have been nearing release. It seems totally improbable that developers would have gone back to the game and programmed in a new character (especially the final boss) in that short a timeframe.

I discussed SpaceGodzilla’s evolution from Super Godzilla in this thread a few months ago. IMO, there’s no reason to believe the Super Godzilla game or character were influenced by work done on the Godzilla movie intended for a December 1994 release; the timelines don’t line up at all. Instead, it seems likely that Toho’s SFX personnel turned to elements from the video game’s development because they were already working overtime planning Yamato Takeru at the same time.

Very true and thanks for the insight, I didn't think it was a smoking gun exactly; far from it. I would however consider notice that AstroGodzilla did have a prolonged concept, at least compared to most other spitballed film treatments with the exception of Battle for Earth (given that was almost a chimera between Mothra vs. Bagan and the two Gigamoth treatments) as it did start as the Emperor Ghidorah film and then the AstroGodzilla and CrystalGodzilla treatments before becoming the film you so well detailed.

Typically videogame development in the 1990s, especially for Nintendo, was often done chronologically. As in the first few levels would be made first as a means of testing coding and mechanics and then the later stages were made. This is one reason why often final bosses in the NES/Famicom and SNES eras would only be a sort of gestalt of the previous stage bosses, with multiple abilities or traits; a tradition that continues to this day as a natural means of making the game harder over time beyond raw stats. Making the first few levels, then pausing to fine tune it and draft the ending levels, was pretty common though obviously some titles were under a crunch and some weren't. Super Godzilla wasn't an especially big project with only 7 core programmers so most information I can find on development seems to indicate the production cycle wasn't especially quick. And this wasn't the only time Toho would have possibly allowed licensed media to come out in advance of the feature film, that's happened for many of the G-Films right up to Shin Godzilla.

So there might not have been backtracking exactly to do/re-do a boss fight, and more possibly the planned boss fight was changed when the film that became Vs SpaceGodzilla had some revisions being done in late 1993, before the very late December release. So while the final Super Godzilla inspired design for SpaceGodzilla might be 1994 in origin, it does seem somewhat possible at least discussions on what the character's design would be was enough of a toss-up at the time (be it in the Emperor Ghidorah or very early Crystal/AstroGodzilla drafts) a game that could have been considering tapping the developing movie's resources opted to go for something already finalized.

tl;dr - Could be the latter part of Super Godzilla's development overlapped with the early stages of Vs. SpaceGodzilla's early drafts and, if not a proper tie-in, the developers at least considered drawing from that source before opting out.

Because it seems pretty much like a good explanation for why Bagan ended up there is because there was no one else to use.

[GigaBowserG]

I discussed SpaceGodzilla’s evolution from Super Godzilla in this thread a few months ago. IMO, there’s no reason to believe the Super Godzilla game or character were influenced by work done on the Godzilla movie intended for a December 1994 release; the timelines don’t line up at all. Instead, it seems likely that Toho’s SFX personnel turned to elements from the video game’s development because they were already working overtime planning Yamato Takeru at the same time.

Great post in the other thread! Yes, it's been stated numerous times that Super Godzilla's design was recycled into SpaceGodzilla. Likewise, in Koichi Kawakita's book "Godzilla Heisei Chronicle", he mentions how early iterations were named either "NEW" or "SUPER" Godzilla on the material while they worked on what would become SpaceG.

As far as dates go, I'm about 99% sure this is Bagan's final design that was used for the game - also dated "92". It appears Yoshida was commissioned to make another new design for the monster specifically for this game, even if all promo material reflects another of Yoshida's designs (this one) for some reason.

[Desghidorah]

I discussed SpaceGodzilla’s evolution from Super Godzilla in this thread a few months ago. IMO, there’s no reason to believe the Super Godzilla game or character were influenced by work done on the Godzilla movie intended for a December 1994 release; the timelines don’t line up at all. Instead, it seems likely that Toho’s SFX personnel turned to elements from the video game’s development because they were already working overtime planning Yamato Takeru at the same time.

Great post in the other thread! Yes, it's been stated numerous times that Super Godzilla's design was recycled into SpaceGodzilla. Likewise, in Koichi Kawakita's book "Godzilla Heisei Chronicle", he mentions how early iterations were named either "NEW" or "SUPER" Godzilla on the material while they worked on what would become SpaceG.

As far as dates go, I'm about 99% sure this is Bagan's final design that was used for the game - also dated "92". It appears Yoshida was commissioned to make another new design for the monster specifically for this game, even if all promo material reflects another of Yoshida's designs (this one) for some reason.

Fascinating. Perhaps the initial promos used the older artwork due to a misplacing of the artwork at release or promotional/tie-in material for the game being made while the game itself was still being finished? Not unusual as advertisements and snippets of guide information for game magazines often came out months ahead of time back then.

[GojiDog]

Is it possible that the game went into development while a Bagan movie was still being discussed or on the table?

I wonder if they thought Bagan would be in a movie when the game went into development only for things to change, resulting in Bagan being an odd final boss in this Godzilla game.

[Omegazilla]

Interesting stuff. Nonetheless Super Godzilla is a great game for the era and Bagan will always be the monster that should have gotten a movie role, but never did.

[GigaBowserG]

Well, question was asked almost a year to the day, but the answer to how Bagan ended up in Super Godzilla has been revealed!... and it was really quite simple.

―How did you decide which monster characters would be appearing in the game?
Takeno Since we were making a Godzilla game, the first thing we did was to meet with Shogo Tomiyama, who was acting as producer for Toho Cinemas. This meeting included gaining consent for all this. When we asked, “may we have original kaiju appear in this game?” Mr. Tomiyama replied that “we have this design here readied for you, actually.” He then provided us with the planned character design for Bagan, he of the phantom film Mothra vs. Bagan. We were also introduced to Mr. Minoru Yoshida, a kaiju designer from the Heisei VS Series who had been in charge of designing Bagan. We asked Mr. Yoshida to create the design of “Super Godzilla,” who appears in the game’s climax.

https://www.tohokingdom.com/blog/super- ... anslation/

It sounds like they gave the SG devs Yoshida's concept from the get go, probably because it was the closest to the Godzilla/Ghidorah hybrid monster design they were looking for.

[edgaguirus]

By constant begging.