Will Toho succeed in suppressing/wiping out certain US Cuts?

[Space Hunter M]

I still think Chrispy is Toho's (un)paid lackey.

[Goji]

I wonder how much penetration into the populous the various streams/downloads/bootleg copies have.

I mean....we are talking what? A couple hundred, a couple thousand fans "fighting the good fight"....vs the size of the total Godzilla fanbase as it currently stands today.

It just feels like an exercise in futility. If Toho wants the English versions gone, or at least...cast aside and left unrestored, unpromoted, unreleased....in the grand scheme of things, that is what they are going to get.

I do think there will always be that one guy standing in a room of 100 people screaming that he has a version none of them have ever seen or care about, and that he likes it more than the original version they all know and own.

And your point is..what, exactly?

[UltramanGoji]

And your point is..what, exactly?

Aside from the pocket change he's getting from Toho's marketing team, nothing really.

[omgitsgodzilla]

Eh, his takes are frequently goofy but the "paid shill" thing is too. I get that it's as much a joke about Toho's shadowy and capricious bureaucracy as anything, but it kind of just makes me think of people complaining about "Disney shills" in the same breath as "forced diversity" in Star Wars.

[UltramanGoji]

Eh, his takes are frequently goofy but the "paid shill" thing is too. I get that it's as much a joke about Toho's shadowy and capricious bureaucracy as anything, but it kind of just makes me think of people complaining about "Disney shills" in the same breath as "forced diversity" in Star Wars.

I don’t think any one of us genuinely believe he’s being paid by Toho to have these opinions, we’re just poking fun at the strange sycophantic nature of them.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I feel like Godzilla is the type of franchise where despite what might happen in the future, Godzilla's US releases and older dubs will always be remembered.
The reason is that because the series is intrinsically niche (to Western audiences) and anyone talking about the series online, for the most part is accessing sites like TohoKingdom or Wikizilla, that have done a good job at cataloging different cuts and differences between releases such as their names and distributors.

I think the idea of never being able to see an older Godzilla film in english on a big screen is a legitimate concern. However, I don't think this is unique to Toho or specifically the Godzilla franchise. Keep in mind most people that aren't hardcore Godzilla fans actively searching for these types of events, have never seen an Godzilla film in a proper theater setting. What cut it is irrelevant at that point.

I just personally disagree with the narrative that a lot of this is intentionally malicious, or willfully trying to destroy history. To me, it comes more off as a company cutting corners. A lot of this discussion is based off of an interpretation of an interview, which simultaneously acknowledges how important the Western Godzilla fanbase is, and the Criterion release. People are rallying against that release for visual quality (rightfully so!) and the lack of the inclusion of different versions (considering the price-point also rightfully so), but are also ignoring that as a product made for new fans, it's probably the most substantial and easiest to get someone as a gift who has seen G14 and Shin but haven't seen the other films.

I think a lot of this boils down to people like Space Hunter M and OmgitsGodzilla (who have done an excellent job of preserving and showcasing different cuts of the film online), and people like Tamura and Terasawa (who clearly have an interest in Godzilla's Western History and the dubbing process and themselves have done a fantastic job at digging up information and cataloging it) versus a company who has an interest in just making their franchise easier to access. I just feel completely neutral in this situation, I don't think everyone is wrong for feeling this way, and I think certain sentiments echoed by Chrispy-G are very amusing, but at the same time I don't get why everyone is making out Toho to be a boogeyman, when in reality it's just a Japanese media conglomerate making, depending on who you ask, poor decisions. I think the fact that aforementioned fans such as Tamura are so invested in preserving history destroys the prior hypothesis that such an endeavor, intentional or not, can occur.

[Tamura]

Toho isn't trying to make 15 Japanese versions more accessible out of the goodness of their heart or something, they solely exist for profit. They aren't benevolent or malevolent. They don't even have a distinguishable face. They're just a chaotic corporate bureaucracy with a really high turnover rate. They aren't even alone in their bad business decisions... Toho isn't an individual evil, it's a symptom of something larger. I would almost prefer to not say "Toho" when referring to a specific bureaucratic system that is currently eroding any of its cash cow's potential on home video into dust while every other even remotely significant genre film flourishes. I don't know what to call them... I just know I don't want to dignify them with the name of the studio that, in its heyday, was open to new technologies and international cooperation, and routinely produced good movies. Any suggestions?

[AtomicMorningBreath]

Toho isn't trying to make 15 Japanese versions more accessible out of the goodness of their heart or something, they solely exist for profit. They aren't benevolent or malevolent. They don't even have a distinguishable face. They're just a chaotic corporate bureaucracy with a really high turnover rate. They aren't even alone in their bad business decisions... Toho isn't an individual evil, it's a symptom of something larger. I would almost prefer to not say "Toho" when referring to a specific bureaucratic system that is currently eroding any of its cash cow's potential on home video into dust while every other even remotely significant genre film flourishes. I don't know what to call them... I just know I don't want to dignify them with the name of the studio that, in its heyday, was open to new technologies and international cooperation, and routinely produced good movies. Any suggestions?

ToNo

[Chrispy_G]

Toho isn't trying to make 15 Japanese versions more accessible out of the goodness of their heart or something, they solely exist for profit. They aren't benevolent or malevolent. They don't even have a distinguishable face. They're just a chaotic corporate bureaucracy with a really high turnover rate. They aren't even alone in their bad business decisions... Toho isn't an individual evil, it's a symptom of something larger. I would almost prefer to not say "Toho" when referring to a specific bureaucratic system that is currently eroding any of its cash cow's potential on home video into dust while every other even remotely significant genre film flourishes. I don't know what to call them... I just know I don't want to dignify them with the name of the studio that, in its heyday, was open to new technologies and international cooperation, and routinely produced good movies. Any suggestions?

ToNo

When you compare how much they worked with Criterion vs how much Kodakawa seems to be working with Arrow video....ToNo might be a decent name for them.

[Malchik]

Toho is the Universal of Japan cinema.

[GojirO]

Legit question. I'm not arguing quality or non quality of the US versions. I'm not arguing the merit of preserving them.

I'm asking....if Toho decides they want the US cuts gone....are they gone?

I'm pretty sure that even Japanese Godzilla releases have included "King of the Monsters", and that Toho seems to take no issue with suppressing it or ignoring it in any kind of way. King Kong vs Godzilla obviously isn't up to Toho. Universal has the US cut and so that version won't go away. They approved every change for Godzilla 2000's US version, and apparently like that version and use it as their official version of the movie outside of Japan. So Godzilla 2000's US cut is safe.

Clearly they don't really care about or actively dislike all of the others.

Mathematically speaking....are these versions doomed to fade into total digital obscurity?

Some of these films like Sea Monster, Smog Monster and Godzilla 1985, haven't had their unique US versions released in ANY official capacity since the VHS days. So...they do not officially exist in the "disc format" of the new millennium. Never even released on DVD and we're well into the age of 4K(Where I don't expect any of the vintage Godzilla films will ever be released)

Gigantis, The Thing, Ghidrah, Monster Zero, and Revenge all were released on DVD by Classic Media in the 2006/2007 range. Those are all out of print and are well over a decade old. Those versions have never seen the light of day on Blu Ray.

At this point, we are dealing with an entire generation of new fans that would have come to Godzilla, that are still coming to Godzilla....IF they are exposed to these older films at all, it is through the original cuts. They are likely largely unaware of other versions, and if they are aware, quite possibly simply not interested.

With all modern releases Toho has completely emphasized the original cuts and international dubs.

The highly publicized, strong selling Criterion Set...the only North American release to put all Showa films together and all on Blu Ray....has 2 US cuts on it. For any new fan brought in by the MonsterVerse or even the Anime Trilogy who goes further....this is the only way to get the whole Showa Era on Blu Ray in the US. Regardless of the quality of the set. If you are in the US, and want to buy all of these films on disc...the Criterion Box Set is the only practical choice for a lot of reasons.

I know there are 'means' to find the US versions online in varying degrees of quality. I know there is a population of fans who pursue these versions....but who carries the torch next?

With SO MANY Godzilla films for new fans to enjoy, I feel that for many who are just becoming fans, their interest in a lot of the older films might be purely academic or obligatory. On that level, having no association with the US cuts or realistic way to access them....new fans just might not care at all.

I just wonder....to go down the hole of becoming a Godzilla fan, becoming a fan of all of the older Godzilla films, diving deep enough to discover the US cuts, and then watching them and becoming one who prefers them.....the amount of new Godzilla fans that will meet all of those criteria seems slim.

On a long enough timeline....does Toho get what they want? Do the Us versions eventually just hit faded memory status outside of a few dozen aging enthusiasts on the internet, exchanging discs and files among themselves....with there being no "market" for that within the next wave or two of new, younger fans?

To be fair, G1985 isn’t so much a lack-of-want-based issues so much a copyright issue

[Major sssspielberg!]

It's insane to me how the wants of the fanbase have changed in the last 15 years. When I was young and first discovering the fan community at large (thinking Holy shit, I'm not the only freak into these pictures) it was like finally grasping the vastness of space: Manda, Varan, Mothra all came from their own movies!? A Toho Frankenstein movie that Baragon originates from?!? Etc. Etc.
Back then there was such a craving for the unedited Japanese versions of these films to be made available so we didn't have to put up with the "botched" American edits.
It's awesome to see the changing attitudes in the wake of the Japanese language releases being the standard releases of Toho's sci-fi output. (People have realized they don't have to put up with shitty releases just because they're 'unedited' and in the native tongue) It's also incredibly inspiring to see the fan community pull together to preserve every aspect of the legacy of the series and the filmmakers work that went into it.
I think as long as the fans who are equipped and knowledge enough to do the good work of preserving these versions of these films, or working to provide the films with presentations they (and the fans) deserve, no company can squash a goddamn thing.

[o.supreme]

I can't speak for other fans however....The reason why I wanted to see the original Japanese versions of those films is for that exact reason, because they were the original versions, not because I had any dislike for the dubs.

Before DVD I envisioned one day I would have a collection of 2 of every Toho film on VHS. The original, and the dub( that was before I knew some films had more than one dub, and different edits). With DVD technology however I gained an even greater vision. Owning one copy of a film with both original Japanese with subs, and with dub, and by means of seamless branching, accounting for different edits etc
...

The technology exists, but few companies want to put forth the effort. There's no reason today that any version of a film should be in danger of being lost to time. It's only people's selfishness that is causing it to happen.

[Joseph Goodman]

I'm a little skeptical that this is the situation

[shadowgigan]

If I've lost my Classic Media DVDs, am I screwed? Do I need to buy these up to make sure I don't miss out?

[UltramanGoji]

If I've lost my Classic Media DVDs, am I screwed? Do I need to buy these up to make sure I don't miss out?

Unless you’re (for god knows what reason) morally opposed to downloading fan reconstructions, no you’re not screwed.

[omgitsgodzilla]

I'm a little skeptical that this is the situation

He told me that was the case a little while ago, but the Arrow box states the Gamera films' US versions actually belonged to Kadokawa, so unless AIP et al. handled their deals with Toho very differently...

[goji1986]

I'm a little skeptical that this is the situation

He told me that was the case a little while ago, but the Arrow box states the Gamera films' US versions actually belonged to Kadokawa, so unless AIP et al. handled their deals with Toho very differently...

I think, though, that in the case of Daiei/Kadokawa AIP had an active role in the development and release of those films, therefore the contracts were indeed different. Just a guess on my part though.

[Terasawa]

If I've lost my Classic Media DVDs, am I screwed? Do I need to buy these up to make sure I don't miss out?

Unless you’re (for god knows what reason) morally opposed to downloading fan reconstructions, no you’re not screwed.

This. And while it depends on the reconstruction, those are generally going to be better than the Classic Media versions, which themselves were really lousy reconstructions. (Gigantis and vs the Thing excepted, although those were lousy versions of the real deal.)

[omgitsgodzilla]

I'm a little skeptical that this is the situation

He told me that was the case a little while ago, but the Arrow box states the Gamera films' US versions actually belonged to Kadokawa, so unless AIP et al. handled their deals with Toho very differently...

I think, though, that in the case of Daiei/Kadokawa AIP had an active role in the development and release of those films, therefore the contracts were indeed different. Just a guess on my part though.

If anything, though, you'd think that would make it more likely for AI and/or whoever inherited their catalog to hold onto some rights in perpetuity. Of course, unless someone digs out the papers, it's impossible to be absolutely certain.