Explosions: Vaild Or Invaild

[g2vd]

Recently, in some FM matches there have been arguments about whether or not an explosion a monster creates is vaild or not or it's just something done to look cool and it doesn't even count. the way I see it is not to count the explosion but to count the destruction it causes of course I don't mean every explosion seen is invalid it's just that it is kinda hard to figure out what is vaild.

Example I consider vaild:
MechaGodzilla Showa's Missiles and Lazers destroying entire city blocks.

Example I don't consider vaild.
Kaiju firing at the ground (Or if a Kaiju is slowly flying through the city or walking and huge explosions erupt) whether it be Countryside or just pavement sparks erupt or this.

As you can see it leaves little damage and it doesn't even make sense when there's nothing to cause it.

So anyway let the debates begin.

[Godzelda]

EDIT: Deleted my post because I realized it wasn't really relevant to this topic.

[Breakdown]

In some instances yes, but there's been plenty of examples in science fiction where some weapons produce very small explosions but are still insanely powerful.

[Unit~NoA]

What about the large explosions that cause/leave little to no effect on the environment but successfully harm a powerful character?

[EmperorGhidorah]

For some kaiju beams and other weapons, explosion size is all we really have to go on.

[g2vd]

Of course we can't discount every explosion. but in the Heisei Series when a Kaiju just walks or flys through the city slowly doing nothing, and huge 200 meter explosions erupt or when Showa Godzilla or Fake Godzilla (I don't remember) punches a building and it explodes. I'm a little cautious about counting it, however in cases like Showa MG and G2K their explosions could fit the destruction their beams cause so I think their vaild.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

This sounds like a hard question. I think the size of the explosion counts as an indicator of power unless there are other factors to contradict it. For example, while on the topic of Showa MechaGodzilla, that MechaGodzilla's weapons were very inconsistent in the size of the explosions they created. They created giant explosions when hitting buildings, but they rarely did the same when hitting other kaiju. There's also the fact that a building exploded from being punched in its movie, as another comment already pointed out. In this case, I'd say the explosions are unreliable.

Environmental damage is also tricky sometimes. For example, cartoons sometimes don't show much environmental damage after explosions.

[g2vd]

Another thing we have to factor in is a explosion, may not actually be a explosion but actually a Fire plume as IR says.

oh my god...

Gamera's fireballs have made fire plumes comparable to the spiral rays.

This statement is not incorrect. It is, however, entirely meaningless. That was the entire point of my previous post, which you seem to have missed. Fireball size is not an indication of explosive power. Compare a molotov cocktail to a hand grenade. One makes a pretty fireball, the other puts a crater in the ground.

I used the fireballs making comparative fire plumes to the spiral rays as evidence that gamera's fireballs are comparative to the spiral rays in terms of power. Not as strong but in the same ballpark.

Yes, and I keep telling you that's wrong. And you're not getting it. The size of a fireball is not indicative of the strength of the explosion that produced it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEqIiflPpp8

The gasoline explosion made a larger fireball, but the naphthalene explosion was 4x more powerful.

I mean we use the same line of logic for utsuno's beam being powerful right.

No. We use the size of the explosion itself as evidence for that.

which fits with BG's spiral ray.

[MDK]

This sounds like a hard question. I think the size of the explosion counts as an indicator of power unless there are other factors to contradict it. For example, while on the topic of Showa MechaGodzilla, that MechaGodzilla's weapons were very inconsistent in the size of the explosions they created. They created giant explosions when hitting buildings, but they rarely did the same when hitting other kaiju. There's also the fact that a building exploded from being punched in its movie, as another comment already pointed out. In this case, I'd say the explosions are unreliable.

So can I say that GINO Jr's breath sucks because it didn't break through monsters like it did through rocks? It clearly contradicts itself.

Of course Mechagodzilla's missiles didn't create big ass explosions when it hit other monsters. Especially since they're burrowing missiles. It makes sense why there's a discrepancy. Different things result in different explosions. Something isn't gonna make a big ass explosion in a building with tons of shit inside it like pipes and do the same on a monster. It doesn't make things any less impressive. And just from a real life angle, the special effects director wasn't gonna have these things go off on a rubber suit with a guy inside them. If anything it's an outlier.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

So can I say that GINO Jr's breath sucks because it didn't break through monsters like it did through rocks? It clearly contradicts itself.

Unless their hides are, you know, harder than rock.

Of course Mechagodzilla's missiles didn't create big ass explosions when it hit other monsters. Especially since they're burrowing missiles. It makes sense why there's a discrepancy. Different things result in different explosions. Something isn't gonna make a big ass explosion in a building with tons of shit inside it like pipes and do the same on a monster. It doesn't make things any less impressive. And just from a real life angle, the special effects director wasn't gonna have these things go off on a rubber suit with a guy inside them. If anything it's an outlier.

That explains the missiles, but not the eye lasers. Speaking of the lasers, the beam clash between Godzilla and MechaG implied that the atomic breath and optical lasers were at equal levels of strength, yet the lasers were able to damage MechaG when the atomic breath couldn't. There were a lot of weird things going on there.

[Godzelda]

So can I say that GINO Jr's breath sucks because it didn't break through monsters like it did through rocks? It clearly contradicts itself.

Unless their hides are, you know, harder than rock.

That's his point. Obviously MG's missiles or Zilla Jr's breath won't look as impressive when hitting a monster as it does when hitting rocks, because the monster is much more durable than rock.

[ZillaJr-KaijuKing]

That's his point. Obviously MG's missiles or Zilla Jr's breath won't look as impressive when hitting a monster as it does when hitting rocks, because the monster is much more durable than rock.

Is there any evidence that an energy-based explosion would be smaller just because it hits something harder? I can understand the burrowing missiles, but the lasers also didn't do as much.

Edit: It looks like I have to admit I was wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPscEp5iUeI

There are instances of MechaG's beams causing huge explosions outside of hitting buildings after all.

[Godzelda]

That's his point. Obviously MG's missiles or Zilla Jr's breath won't look as impressive when hitting a monster as it does when hitting rocks, because the monster is much more durable than rock.

Is there any evidence that an energy-based explosion would be smaller just because it hits something harder? I can understand the burrowing missiles, but the lasers also didn't do as much.

Edit: It looks like I have to admit I was wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPscEp5iUeI

There are instances of MechaG's beams causing huge explosions outside of hitting buildings after all.

Aside from that, I think the most likely reason an energy beam would cause an explosion would be that it vaporizes what it hits, resulting in something similar to a boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion. In that case, it would certainly have a less dramatic effect when hitting something that's more durable.

[Spuro]

I'd say it depends on the specific weapon we're talking about. For missiles and bombs its always a valid point, but for energy weapons like beams, I believe the heat of the beam itself is more important than the explosion it produces. With energy weapons, their true power lies not in the flashiest explosion it can produce, but in how much energy (usually in the form of heat) is pumped into a small area, which is a more effective way to damage a heavily armoured kaiju.

Not to mention kaiju are rarely bothered by explosions anyway. They're never scratched by the military's arsenal of explosives, and wading through a city decorated in fireballs never becomes an issue. The only missiles that seem to bother kaiju are those from the Mechagodzillas and Moguera, and in the case of revolving missiles and spiral grenades (and the crap-through-a-goose-missiles, now that I think of it), we do know that the more of those weapons lies first and foremost in their armor penetrating abilities. Much like the beams I mentioned above.

But why something like Kiryu's missiles bother Godzilla when other explosions do him no harm, that's entirely up for debate.

[EmperorGhidorah]

The explosion simply lend scaling. Most beams produce some sort of explosion, thus it makes comparing their strength easier. Unless a beam explicitly damages kajiu in some way other than an explosion (ie the Mana Beam or the AZC), than the explosion of a kaiju beam is the best way to compare and contrast them.

[Inferno Rodan]

I'd say it depends on the specific weapon we're talking about. For missiles and bombs its always a valid point, but for energy weapons like beams, I believe the heat of the beam itself is more important than the explosion it produces. With energy weapons, their true power lies not in the flashiest explosion it can produce, but in how much energy (usually in the form of heat) is pumped into a small area, which is a more effective way to damage a heavily armoured kaiju.

The vast majority of beam weapons aren't fired for long enough for whatever heat content they have to do much damage. The heat only really becomes a factor when the beam is held on the target for an extended duration.

The average temperature of lightning, for example, is 55,000 degrees fahrenheit. But you never see it incinerate people when they're struck because it only lasts for a fraction of a second. Napalm, on the other hand, can easily turn a person to ash despite being "only" 2000-3000 degrees, because it generates its heat for far longer.

Not to mention kaiju are rarely bothered by explosions anyway. They're never scratched by the military's arsenal of explosives, and wading through a city decorated in fireballs never becomes an issue.

This is primarily due to the fact that nearly all military assaults against kaiju are hilariously anemic.

[three]

For some kaiju beams and other weapons, explosion size is all we really have to go on.

an explosion on a tiny scale is caused each time the mantis shrimp fires off a punch. that the explosion is small is in on way relevant to the power behind the punch of the shrimp when scaled. ergo, explosion size does not correlate to the power behind the explosion. this way of thinking fails consistently, so i am not sure why you keep bringing it up. :/

[EmperorGhidorah]

For some kaiju beams and other weapons, explosion size is all we really have to go on.

an explosion on a tiny scale is caused each time the mantis shrimp fires off a punch. that the explosion is small is in on way relevant to the power behind the punch of the shrimp when scaled. ergo, explosion size does not correlate to the power behind the explosion. this way of thinking fails consistently, so i am not sure why you keep bringing it up. :/

Your comparison fails simply because the explosion is not the damaging aspect of a Mantic Shrimp punch. The Mantis Shrimp does not utilize explosive power to damage a target.

Of course I don't base the strength of an attack solely on explosion size. The strength of a beam/projectile attack is largely based on the damage it causes. But as I said before, most beams cause some kind of explosion and that just gives us something to compare.

[three]

the point is not whether or not it damages. the point is that an explosion is not entirely representative of power. the damage caused is also not a good indicator. more powerful bombs were dropped in the pacific than on hiroshima or nagasaki, but there was more damage caused in a clustered urban environment than anywhere in the ocean. you can't measure power by damage output.

[EmperorGhidorah]

the point is not whether or not it damages. the point is that an explosion is not entirely representative of power. the damage caused is also not a good indicator. more powerful bombs were dropped in the pacific than on hiroshima or nagasaki, but there was more damage caused in a clustered urban environment than anywhere in the ocean. you can't measure power by damage output.

...dude. Measuring the power of things like kaiju beams or projectiles would require one to look at the damage it causes and or the size of the explosion. There is literally nothing else to go on.

How, exactly, do you measure the power of beams or projectiles? I'd like to know.