Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

[Carthormerr]

^Am interested. Please elaborate...

To be honest not a lot more I can say. Just not a lot of movies end with octopus creature showing up at the last second and taking out said person. Need to call this the "Octopus Ending". Now I know that wasn't really an octopus in Prometheus, but I had literally just watched the Octo ending in Frankenstein just days before for the first time, so seeing this right after was a big HAHAHA moment

[Captain Aktion]

All things considered, I didn't even really understand how the Octopus could kill Franky...

They showed him hiding-out underwater and the way that scene works makes me think that Franky, maybe, didn't even need to breathe. Traditionally (and in this film, albeit indirectly), Frankenstein couldn't be killed by ordinary means. I don't think that bullets would've killed him either. Not only did Frankenstein bring the dead back to life in this misshapen beast, but he inadvertently created an immortal as well. Therefore, either Franky can breathe on land and underwater or he doesn't really need to breathe, otherwise he's not much of an immortal if you can suffocate him with a pillow, y'know?

So...I guess the octopus just...shredded Franky? Or...I dunno. Don't really understand it. Not that it matters; I don't understand the octopus (there's no contextual reason for it to be in the film), but whatever.

Plus, Franky not being limited to land or sea would definitely explain Gaira a bit more. Maybe Franky never died? Maybe he's just licking his wounds and lurking about? Maybe the third film could've been a free-for-all between all three of the...Sons of Frankenstein...?

[Tohosaurus]

Often preferred to the Gargantuas sequel, I like Frankenstein but still prefer Gargantuas somehow. Both are well done but the Gargantuas movie just conveys more emotion and has a greater sense of struggle (I guess since the monster vs monster subplot element is more dramatic).

[edgaguirus]

Not many kaiju films try to establish relationships between the monsters. Most emphasize the good ones relationship with man. Gargantua tries both man and monster relations and succeeds.

Frankenstein is a good film, though. The octopus ending was padding, or just another monster fight for the audience to enjoy.

[pta917]

I'm seeing the movie right now and Baragon is cute I want one has a pet.

[Godzilla628]

This film is my favorite of the two Frankenstein films. It has one of my favorite Ifukube scores and it has some pretty cool fight scenes. The story is pretty good too it could have been executed a little bit better though. Baragon's design is awesome. I wish they would have kept Baragon's roar from this movie for GMK. I also like Frankenstein's design. I like the makeup. This is one of the best non-godzilla toho movies.

[Arbok]

I would say The War of the Gargantuas overshadows this film a lot, due to the more compelling monster angle of having them be related and turn on each other (a dynamic never done before and not repeated in a Toho kaiju film) that ads more edge to the conflict in that film.

...that said, this film probably ranks #3 for me for Toho's non-Godzilla kaiju efforts and is a solid, fun, popcorn entertainment flick from the firm. The human cast is fun, while Baragon himself is an odd design that works.

[eabaker]

I find the human characters Frankenstain much more likable and their relationships far more compelling than in Gargantuas (partly due to Nick Adams having vastly greater screen presence than Russ Tamblyn, but mostly due to the plot structure which gives each of the three leads some level of personal relationship with the monster).

Gargantuas sets up a potentially interesting relationship between the two monsters, but I never feel like it explores that relationship very well, and certainly not well enough to make up for the trade-off of less compelling human drama.

It's a shame that Frankenstein and Baragon don't have any more meaningful connection (emotionally or narratively) than that one monster's actions are blamed on the other, so that they seem at points like they're in totally separate plotlines, and their convergence is basically coincidental. But it is a testament to the skills of Honda, Kimura et al that this coincidence factor isn't something that leaps out on first viewing; it's more of a fridge logic situation.

Frankenstein Conquers the World is either my second or third favorite non-Godzilla kaiju flick from Toho. It definitely doesn't match up to the original Mothra (which I would put alongside the very best Godzilla movies without hesitation), but I'd put it on roughly equal footing with Rodan - albeit for completely different reasons.

[Captain Aktion]

^Great, great analysis, as usual.

I agree, the very character structure to FCtW has more dynamic to it than the structure in WotG; you rightfully pointed out how all the main characters have a "connection" to the kaiju events that unfold in FCtW. It makes for a far more compelling experience, even if you can't put your finger on quite why it is.

I guess one metaphor is this: in FCtW, all roads led back to the kaiju. In WotG, all the roads were blocked by the kaiju. If you can understand what I'm getting at.

[eabaker]

I guess one metaphor is this: in FCtW, all roads led back to the kaiju. In WotG, all the roads were blocked by the kaiju. If you can understand what I'm getting at.

I'm not sure if I totally get what you mean or not. Care to expand a little?

[Captain Aktion]

^I guess I'll try, but it's a little nebulous.

All of the characters of note in FCtW have a kind of intrinsic connection to the plot, be it Mizuno's acceptance and "motherliness" towards Frankenstein, Adams being the "grounding" for Mizuno's character, Takashima's scientific/selfish interest in Frankenstein, Tsuchiya as not only the "coot" who saw another monster but also as the fundamental "witness" to the events during WWII, and the way that Frankenstein and Baragon themselves contrast the ideas of science-amok vs. nature-amok. There's a strong underlying element of connection between the characters and the kaiju without being blatant about it.

In WotG, it's a much more "fairy-tale"(for lack of better term) kind of connection that everyone has. There, mostly for plot convenience without having much of anything to show, depth-wise, for why that should work out that way. Two giants who are brothers fight over "light and dark" with a princess at the middle. That pretty much sums it up, if I were to be not so generous to it. Don't get me wrong, I love both films, but FCtW makes me...feel something for the human characters and in turn, it strengthens my investment in the kaiju action.

EDIT: Ugh, I'm three pints deep into my day off, I hope this makes sense...

[eabaker]

^Gotcha, and agree completely.

I wonder if War of the Gargantuas would have more of an emotional impact if it had been a more direct follow-up to FCtW, with Adams and Takashima returning, and direct continuity with the previous events. I realize that, in 1960s Japanaese genre cinema, there simply wasn't any way a movie was going to be produced that was that reliant on the audience being familiar with the previous entry, so it's not really a pragmatic question. But, from the perspective of modern fans who can watch them back to back, would Gargantuas benefit emotionally and thematically by being a truer sequel, or would that simply rob it of its individual charms?

[Captain Aktion]

^Gotcha, and agree completely.

I wonder if War of the Gargantuas would have more of an emotional impact if it had been a more direct follow-up to FCtW, with Adams and Takashima returning, and direct continuity with the previous events. I realize that, in 1960s Japanaese genre cinema, there simply wasn't any way a movie was going to be produced that was that reliant on the audience being familiar with the previous entry, so it's not really a pragmatic question. But, from the perspective of modern fans who can watch them back to back, would Gargantuas benefit emotionally and thematically by being a truer sequel, or would that simply rob it of its individual charms?

Absolutely. Abso-friggin'-lutely.

Posit: What if there was a strong reason to think that part of Frankensteins cells absorbed and regrew in the mountainside as a new being, retaining a lot of the "emotional" underpinnings that were applied to Franky in the first one (Sanda). Now, imagine that not only did some of Franky's cells end up in the ocean to grow again, but they absorbed some of Baragon's DNA and traits as well; thusly explaining his bloodlust.

Imagine Mizuno's actual character returning to have to make sense of these two...? Adams's determination to keep Mizuno from going off to her own doom trying to reconcile her "sons"...? Takashima realizing he now has TWO opportunities to do what he failed the first time around...?

And, metatextually, I just think it would be less of a headache for guys like us...

[eabaker]

And, metatextually, I just think it would be less of a headache for guys like us...

Yeah, but then I'd have more time to give myself an even bigger headache trying to figure out how to fit them in continuity with Abbot & Costello Meet Frankenstein (currently up to 17 pages on the first draft of that essay).

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

My favorite non Godzilla Toho kaiju film, though Rodan isn't too far off.

[Gamera vs Rodan]

Just watched this except it was called Frankenstein Conquers the World when I watched it. It was good stuff. I'm not the biggest fan of Frankenstein as a monster since he's a little too human for me, but the film worked really well on many levels despite my preferences lying elsewhere.

[Gamera vs Rodan]

This is my favorite non-Godzilla Toho film. And to the post above, you should really see the Japanese version.

I can only seem to find it in VHS version. I understand there's a different ending, though, with a squid, right?

[Goji]

Huh? FCTW never had a VHS release in this country, so that actually doesn't even make sense.

[Gamera vs Rodan]

Huh? FCTW never had a VHS release in this country, so that actually doesn't even make sense.

I don't know what country it's been released in but it's listed on amazon it's just currently unavailable http://www.amazon.com/Frankenstein-Vs-B ... +world+vhs . I didn't know the DVD version they had has everything in it, thanks to the other poster for pointing that out to me!

[Captain Aktion]

^That's either a boot with fan-subs (or dub-subs) or a Japanese VHS without subtitles or dubbing.