Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

[hammysammy59]

Absolutely love these flicks. Easily two of the best giant monster movies ever made. I wish we could have gotten at least one or two more movies with these monsters (besides Baragon, I mean). I would have loved to have seen Gargantuas square off against Godzilla, or even better, finally realize Willis O'Brien's dream of Frankenstein vs. King Kong. Talk about a missed opportunity.

[menschenjaeger]

Another great think in the Frankenstein commentary: During a scene with some police, the interviewer points out "he's speaking in the Hiroshima dialect!" and Arikawa starts chuckling. From that point on, every time that chacter spoke, the two of them laughed.

I take it it's a very distinct dialect? Maybe the equivalent of someone here in the states talking like a hillbilly? EDIT: Nevermind, I looked it up.

[Space Hunter M]

One of my favorite Honda monster films. Watched the U.S. version today. The dubbing is Titra at it's finest and the cut scenes aren't much of a loss. I really enjoyed Tadao Takashima's solemn performance instead of his usual comedic antics for a change. In terms of the special effects, they're okay. It's interesting how the entire film is scaled differently from usual Tsuburaya flicks, but Gargantuas admittedly is superior in this respect. Though, I really enjoyed the composite wideshot of the two monsters fighting in the distance, complete with the fiery red background.

[Carthormerr]

I really like this movie. Good special effects, music, and human characters. I know some people hate the Japanese ending, but it was so random I loved it. The fact that the misunderstood "good guy" beats Baragon only to be pulled into the ocean to his likely death by a giant octopus is priceless.

[MaxRebo320]

^ That was a hell of a bump.

[eabaker]

I really like this movie. Good special effects, music, and human characters. I know some people hate the Japanese ending, but it was so random I loved it. The fact that the misunderstood "good guy" beats Baragon only to be pulled into the ocean to his likely death by a giant octopus is priceless.

Actually, that's not the Japanese ending. The movie ends the same way in both countries. The "Devilfish" ending, from what most sources indicate (as best I can recall), was included at the request of Henry G. Saperstein for the American release, but then never used.

[Rody]

I don't like either ending, because they're both random and anticlimactic. I think it would have been better if "Frankenstein" had been severely wounded in the battle, and simply died from his wounds or wandered/limped off into the fiery woods after the battle. It retains the tragic tone while also making sense.

Besides that, my memory of the film is a bit sketchy. I was decent from what I remember, but not outstanding. Then again, I did watch it dubbed, and I don't think I really knew what to expect from it at the time. I'll have to search it out and watch it again.

[Carthormerr]

Actually, that's not the Japanese ending. The movie ends the same way in both countries. The "Devilfish" ending, from what most sources indicate (as best I can recall), was included at the request of Henry G. Saperstein for the American release, but then never used.

Ok gotcha, well I had only heard that offhand from somewhere, but either way I really liked the random giant octopus showing up at the last second and cleaning house ending compared to the other one without it

[eabaker]

I'm basically in agreement with Rody that neither ending feels particularly satisfying, though, for the life of me, I can't think of any better way out of the narrative corner into which they'd painted themselves.

Yeah, it would make sense for Frankenstein to die from his wounds (although wouldn't he just grow back from the remains?), but that wouldn't be very climactic or exciting.

Sometimes, I guess you've just gotta say, "Fuck it, fissure opens up" or, "Fuck it, here comes the Devilfish," so that you can get Owari up on the screen and send the audience home.

[Captain Aktion]

Hell, the fissure wouldn't be so out of nowhere if they did any kind of set-up for it happening. I mean, I've said this once about War of the Gargantuas as well, but it's literally a logic issue that could be fixed with a single line. All it would take is for one person to say,

"The tunnels Baragon has dug through the mountainside have caused the fault-line to become unstable. This area won't be safe for much longer, regardless of the monsters."

Bam. See, I would have figured on them using the tunneling aspect of Baragon to have some bearing on the climax but instead it's really just...there to give him an excuse to not be around while Franky takes the wrap for his dinner plans, I guess...? An extra one time use special move in the fight...?

I dunno, this one doesn't hang together all that well logically, but it's kind of undeniable that this one gives us pretty much everything that's really good about Showa tokusatsu. Light horror overtones, unstoppable product of man's hubris, mysterious dinosaur like monster with weird abilities, super-science military, Kumi Mizuno, interestingly matched monster brawl...I guess the only thing I could think to add would be aliens or at least spacecraft, but...HOLY SHIT, that would be amazing!!!

[eabaker]

Y'know, you're completely right, that one line could fix the biggest problem with what is otherwise a pretty damned near flawless movie...

[Destroyer]

This is my favorite non Godzilla TOHO film. The acting is very good, (Nick Adams is probably my favorite actor of that period) it has a good story, and the final battle is excellent. Baragon is a cool beast, after seeing him in this, it makes me a little sad that he couldn't do much in DESTROY ALL MONSTERS. The only thing is that I think Baragon took a little too long to show up. I saw the international version with the octopus ending. While random, it's hard to not have fun with it.

[Captain Aktion]

Y'know, you're completely right, that one line could fix the biggest problem with what is otherwise a pretty damned near flawless movie...

Eh, I have my moments.

[o.supreme]

Is that in the Japanese version? Its been so long since I've watched it. I usually just watch the English dub out of lazyness and I dont recall Baragon ever being called by name in it.

[eabaker]

Is that in the Japanese version? Its been so long since I've watched it. I usually just watch the English dub out of lazyness and I dont recall Baragon ever being called by name in it.

Yeah, the movies sometimes have a problem with name dropping out of nowhere.

In Ghidrah, the authorities warn the populace that King Ghidorah has appeared, when at the time they should have no way of knowing that name.

And then there's GMK with this line, 'Baragon sighted, sir!', long before they give the monsters their respective names. (Although that could just be part of the dub/dubtitle sabotage, wouldn't be surprised.)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure than in Japanese, they only call Baragon "the red monster" prior to the names being revealed.

[Captain Aktion]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure than in Japanese, they only call Baragon "the red monster" prior to the names being revealed.

I don't know if it's the dub but at the end when they do receive names they mention Baragon but he's already dead... then at one point Yuri's like, "The Guardian Monsters are here... they're all here" but again Baragon's dead.

I always interpreted it as, "Here in spirit." As in, Baragon's spirit is there strengthening the other Guardians...

EDIT: Also, I remember Princess Salno being the one to name Ghidorah (through her Martian memories) but I could be wrong...

[eabaker]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure than in Japanese, they only call Baragon "the red monster" prior to the names being revealed.

I don't know if it's the dub but at the end when they do receive names they mention Baragon but he's already dead... then at one point Yuri's like, "The Guardian Monsters are here... they're all here" but again Baragon's dead.

I always interpreted it as, "Here in spirit." As in, Baragon's spirit is there strengthening the other Guardians...

EDIT: Also, I remember Princess Salno being the one to name Ghidorah (through her Martian memories) but I could be wrong...

You are correct. In the American edit, however, due to scenes being shuffled around, Ghidorah is reported by name prior to that name having been given.

[MasonWerx]

I like the film especially because Baragon is the funniest and most lovable Kaiju ever.

I wish that the ending of the movie had been Baragon biting off Frankenstein's head and eaten his body and then crawled back underground fat and happy.

Falling into the pit of fire must not have effected Baragon too much because he was back just a couple of years later in DAM, but frankenstein died, YAY! I hate frankenstein.

[Carthormerr]

Did anyone else notice Prometheus pulled the same kind of ending?

[Captain Aktion]

^Am interested. Please elaborate...