Showa Godzilla: mutant, or awoken?

[KaijuCanuck]

Something I've always wondered; we know for a fact that the heisei Godzilla is a total mutant, having once been a normal (albeit of a fictional species) dinosaur. But what about in the showa continuity? The wording of the 1954 film seems to imply that Godzilla was always naturally like that, and was just awoken by the bomb testing. However, if you are watching the original film with the heisei continuity in mind, then that Godzilla (probably) must have also been a mutated Godzillasaurus, which I think leaves the possibility open the for the showa series as well. An third explanation, going off the wording of the original film, is that Godzilla is actually some kind of a fusion between various, mostly unrelated species (he's also only 2 million years old, but that's 1950s science fiction for you).

Personally, I think the showa Godzilla, and the 1954 Godzilla in the showa context, were simply awoken (although the atomic breath is probably a mutation). This would more cleanly explain why there are so many other gigantic, prehistoric species in that continuity, like Rodan, Anguirus and Gorosaurus. It's just a thing that species like that existed. Otherwise, either Godzilla was mutated from a Godzillasaurus but also there are these gigantic normal species, which is weird, or they were all mutated from smaller species, which also seems more muddled than if they were simply awoken. But, IMO, the 1954 Godzilla in the heisei context is definitely a mutated Godzillasaurus, and the scientists in the film just got it wrong (lines up with the Godzillasaurus in GvKG being a total surprise).

What do you guys think? Now that I think about it, if you go with the awoken explanation and accept the kaiju were just a normal feature of the prehistoric ecosystem, then the MonsterVerse has more in common with classic Godzilla than I thought!

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

The Showa Godzillas are probably awoken- some evidence is Minilla having a beam already although that was in a time where the nuclear theme wasn't the point.

Showa= Monsterverse

Heisei= Shin

[King of the Monsters]

I assume that the 1954 and Showa Godzillas were always naturally gigantic, the H-bomb explosions simply awakened them and unlocked their atomic breath abilities and gave their skin its scarred and burned appearance. Within the context of the Heisei series though, I tend to believe Godzilla 1954 was retconned to also be a Godzillasaurus like the Heisei Godzilla.

[KaijuCanuck]

The Showa Godzillas are probably awoken- some evidence is Minilla having a beam already although that was in a time where the nuclear theme wasn't the point.

Showa= Monsterverse

Heisei= Shin

Good point on Minya already having some breath abilities, could be the atomic breath was natural to Godzilla and not a mutation. Isn't there something in Son of Godzilla about Solgell Island being subject to atomic testing though? Or am I misremembering.

[King of the Monsters]

Good point on Minya already having some breath abilities, could be the atomic breath was natural to Godzilla and not a mutation. Isn't there something in Son of Godzilla about Solgell Island being subject to atomic testing though? Or am I misremembering.

There was a radiation storm on the island caused by the scientists' weather experiment, which created the Kamacuras. Not sure if it affected Minilla in any way though.

[KaijuCanuck]

Good point on Minya already having some breath abilities, could be the atomic breath was natural to Godzilla and not a mutation. Isn't there something in Son of Godzilla about Solgell Island being subject to atomic testing though? Or am I misremembering.

There was a radiation storm on the island caused by the scientists' weather experiment, which created the Kamacuras. Not sure if it affected Minilla in any way though.

Ah, that's it. Well if it was enough to create a trio of giant praying mantis', it's probably enough to alter Minilla in the same way the other two Godzillas were.

[Ivo-goji]

None of them were 'awoken', they were living in seclusion deep beneath the sea and occasionally surfacing on remote islands in the Pacific Ocean, with the radioactive fallout from the bombs pushing them out of hiding, attacking human structures because electronic lights reminded them of the flash of the nuclear explosion- as Dr. Yamane took pains to explain in G54. Showa Godzilla is never called a mutant, so he's not a mutant either.

The ability to absorb radiation and release it as a beam from his mouth must be natural features of his species, however strange they seem. So yeah, Showa Godzilla and Monsterverse Godzilla work the same way.

Honestly, Heisei Godzilla's "mutation" is in name only, since mutations are random yet all three members of Godzilla's kind react to radiation the same way. So actually in that continuity his powers have to be natural too; Godzillasaurus isn't a 'normal' dinosaur but a juvenile Godzilla, complete with the ability to absorb radiation and convert it into a heat beam.

My interpretation would be that, under natural circumstances, a member of Godzilla's kind would slowly take in background radiation over their lifespan, only getting a small amount of energy from it- depending on hunting marine life for their everyday dietary needs. Over time each member of the species would gradually become colossal, near invulnerable, and able to dispel their accumulated radiation as a heat beam- but they would need to live millions of years in order to absorb enough background radiation to become like this. ShodaiGoji and LegendaryGoji are both this way, the first was stated by Dr. Yamane to have been alive since the Jurassic period, the second has been around since the Permian era. However, if a juvenile Godzillasaurus were exposed directly to huge amounts of radiation such as do not normally occur in nature, his body would rapidly take on the same features as a fully mature member of his species. This happened to Heisei Godzilla. Godzilla Jr developed even faster as a result of first being exposed to radiation as an egg on Adona Island, then to Heisei Godzilla's proximity, then to the explosion of Bass Island, and finally Godzilla's meltdown.

So in fact, none of them are really mutants.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

None of them were 'awoken', they were living in seclusion deep beneath the sea and occasionally surfacing on remote islands in the Pacific Ocean, with the radioactive fallout from the bombs pushing them out of hiding, attacking human structures because electronic lights reminded them of the flash of the nuclear explosion- as Dr. Yamane took pains to explain in G54. Showa Godzilla is never called a mutant, so he's not a mutant either.

The ability to absorb radiation and release it as a beam from his mouth must be natural features of his species, however strange they seem. So yeah, Showa Godzilla and Monsterverse Godzilla work the same way.

So in fact, none of them are really mutants.

Actaully, yeah that makes sense considering the people of Odo Island saw a Godzilla, which started the rituals and legends.

[King of the Monsters]

The film isn't really clear on whether the creature from Odo Island folklore was actually Godzilla, or if Godzilla was just named after it. And "awakened" being discussed in this context really refers to Godzilla being disturbed and drawn to the surface, not literally awakened from sleep.

Tanaka's book (depending on how canonical you consider it) seems to suggest Godzilla's atomic breath was an innate ability he always possessed, but the H-bomb explosion simply gave him the capacity to use it. This could explain why Minilla's atomic breath begins as simple smoke rings, with Godzilla trying to train Minilla to use atomic breath.

[KaijuCanuck]

The film isn't really clear on whether the creature from Odo Island folklore was actually Godzilla, or if Godzilla was just named after it. And "awakened" being discussed in this context really refers to Godzilla being disturbed and drawn to the surface, not literally awakened from sleep.

Tanaka's book (depending on how canonical you consider it) seems to suggest Godzilla's atomic breath was an innate ability he always possessed, but the H-bomb explosion simply gave him the capacity to use it. This could explain why Minilla's atomic breath begins as simple smoke rings, with Godzilla trying to train Minilla to use atomic breath.

Personally I believe the Odo Island monster was Godzilla - but yeah, I meant awakened as just sort of brought into the world at large, rather than literally he was sleeping for all of the time since prehistory. I feel like a creature that large would hibernate, and surface periodically, hence the Odo Island legend.

Added in 11 minutes 25 seconds:

My interpretation would be that, under natural circumstances, a member of Godzilla's kind would slowly take in background radiation over their lifespan, only getting a small amount of energy from it- depending on hunting marine life for their everyday dietary needs. Over time each member of the species would gradually become colossal, near invulnerable, and able to dispel their accumulated radiation as a heat beam- but they would need to live millions of years in order to absorb enough background radiation to become like this. ShodaiGoji and LegendaryGoji are both this way, the first was stated by Dr. Yamane to have been alive since the Jurassic period, the second has been around since the Permian era. However, if a juvenile Godzillasaurus were exposed directly to huge amounts of radiation such as do not normally occur in nature, his body would rapidly take on the same features as a fully mature member of his species. This happened to Heisei Godzilla. Godzilla Jr developed even faster as a result of first being exposed to radiation as an egg on Adona Island, then to Heisei Godzilla's proximity, then to the explosion of Bass Island, and finally Godzilla's meltdown.

I think that interpretation is extremely cool, and fits Showa and Monsterverse Godzilla like a glove. But the heisei Godzilla I feel is a true mutant. GvKG repeteadly call him a dinosaur, making me think he is naturally a 'typical' dinosaur. That in and of itself is not conclusive proof, but consider that Baby Godzilla was also exposed to extreme radiation, in this case before hatching, and his development was very different. He was non-aggressive, until Birth Island exploded, and ate plants. His size and growth in comparison to Godzilla was not proportionately the same, swelling to a human sized baby from a natural size we can only guess at - we could argue over the power of the specific radiation that transformed him, but I would put it more down to just the random nature of mutations. Also, Rodan was similarly mutated into a giant. He could potentially have the same biology you describe in Godzilla due to convergent evolution, but because pterandons and dinosaurs are not closely related enough IMO, I think it's a cleaner explanation that in this universe, these Hulk-type mutations are just a thing that can happen.

That said, I think you're interpretation is awesome. It reminds me of real life whales and sauropods - at birth they are extremely weak and vulnerable to predators. But if they manage to make it past that filter into adulthood, they are basically untouchable until their natural death. I imagine mommy Godzillas giving birth to giant litters, but the vast majority getting picked off by predators - the very few who do survive though, essentially become gods.

[gojira96]

Awoken has always been my preferred theory.

[PineappleProducer]

"Awoken." As a youngster, I always applied the Godzillasaurus origin to all Godzillas. But I actually like the idea of Godzilla always being a giant monster, because the thought of a "tiny" Godzillasaurus mutating into a 80-100 meter tall Godzilla sounds a bit ludicrous, imo.

[Gerdzerl]

I greatly prefer the "awoken" interpretation. Until proven otherwise, I feel that the Godzillasaurus origin should be assumed to only apply to the Heisei continuity.





Godzilla being a burn victim is a lot more tragic, believable, and interesting than him being a Hulk or TMNT-style mutant. It fits a lot better with the themes of the 1954 film too, what with Godzilla's tree bark-like skin texture intentionally being directly based on the keloid scars and burns on Hiroshima and Nagasaki nuke victims.

[tbeasley]

From Keith Aiken of SciFi Japan...

Sorry about going back to a non-topic discussion, but I'd like to weigh in on the subject of Godzilla as a mutation...

I think Godzilla as an intermediate species and as a possible mutation are two different issues that are being confused here. In GODZILLA, Yamane describes Godzilla's species as intermediate animals in an evolutionary sense. For example, whales are evolved from a terrestrial, wolf-like ancestor. The species that fall between the strictly land-based ancestor and the strictly aquatic whale are intermediate species... there are animals like Pakicetus that had ears with features for hearing both on land and underwater, then Ambulocetus with its otter-like limbs, and then Basilosaurus that could no longer live on land but still had vestigial hind legs that no longer exist in modern whales. With Godzilla, Yamane theorizes that the creature evolved from a land-based ancestor and has reached a stage where it could live on both land and in the sea. As an intermediate animal, if it continued to evolve the species would mostly likely become a solely aquatic animal. So Godzilla being an intermediate species is a separate issue from mutation.

I also think the Godzilla(s) seen in GODZILLA and most (maybe all) of the movies is/are mutations. When developing the original movie, the filmmakers decided that Godzilla should not just be awakened by the bomb (as was the case with THE BEAST FROM 20, 000 FATHOMS) but also be changed by it. Toho studio president Iwao Mori reportedly came up the idea that Godzilla would be mutated by the bomb, and Ishiro Honda and Takeo Murata developed the concept that Godzilla would basically become a living, breathing bomb. The radioactive breath is the most obvious onscreen example of Godzilla's mutation, and other attributes such as the monster's size and imperviousness to modern weapons point to that as well.

Before anyone asks, in SON OF GODZILLA Minya's egg is blasted by intense heat and days of radioactive rain following the failed weather control experiment, so that explains his mutation. The same conditions caused gigantism in the Kamakiri so mutation is clearly shown to have taken place in SOG.

(I know I'm always digging up old posts like these to share but some are too cool not to).

[Gerdzerl]

From Keith Aiken of SciFi Japan...

Sorry about going back to a non-topic discussion, but I'd like to weigh in on the subject of Godzilla as a mutation...

I think Godzilla as an intermediate species and as a possible mutation are two different issues that are being confused here. In GODZILLA, Yamane describes Godzilla's species as intermediate animals in an evolutionary sense. For example, whales are evolved from a terrestrial, wolf-like ancestor. The species that fall between the strictly land-based ancestor and the strictly aquatic whale are intermediate species... there are animals like Pakicetus that had ears with features for hearing both on land and underwater, then Ambulocetus with its otter-like limbs, and then Basilosaurus that could no longer live on land but still had vestigial hind legs that no longer exist in modern whales. With Godzilla, Yamane theorizes that the creature evolved from a land-based ancestor and has reached a stage where it could live on both land and in the sea. As an intermediate animal, if it continued to evolve the species would mostly likely become a solely aquatic animal. So Godzilla being an intermediate species is a separate issue from mutation.

I also think the Godzilla(s) seen in GODZILLA and most (maybe all) of the movies is/are mutations. When developing the original movie, the filmmakers decided that Godzilla should not just be awakened by the bomb (as was the case with THE BEAST FROM 20, 000 FATHOMS) but also be changed by it. Toho studio president Iwao Mori reportedly came up the idea that Godzilla would be mutated by the bomb, and Ishiro Honda and Takeo Murata developed the concept that Godzilla would basically become a living, breathing bomb. The radioactive breath is the most obvious onscreen example of Godzilla's mutation, and other attributes such as the monster's size and imperviousness to modern weapons point to that as well.

Before anyone asks, in SON OF GODZILLA Minya's egg is blasted by intense heat and days of radioactive rain following the failed weather control experiment, so that explains his mutation. The same conditions caused gigantism in the Kamakiri so mutation is clearly shown to have taken place in SOG.

(I know I'm always digging up old posts like these to share but some are too cool not to).

Interesting find! I still think it's possible the 1954 and Showa Godzillas could have already been that large, durable, and naturally possessed an atomic breath by default, like Legendary's version of the character. In other words, the only real significant difference between pre-nuke Godzilla and post-nuke Godzilla in this case would be the burnt, scarred skin and the radioactivity.

Godzilla being a Hulk-like mutant feels weird and cheesy to me and I'm really glad that Legendary made him a giant radioactive prehistoric creature that, in-universe, always was the way he is.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I never thought Godzilla was a mutant, in the traditional sense. The Showa series has two (three if Minya counts) Godzillla species creatures. I do like to believe that Godzilla's skin, particularly the original, was intended to have burnt skin (in contrast to later kaiju that have smooth skin) to reflect radiation burns.

Also there's been early showa concept art and aborted scripts that had multiple Godzilla's living deep undersea or in the hollow earth. Edit, Gerzdel had one up a few moments ago.

[LamangoKaijura]

I think he's a mutant in the fact he got regeneration abilities but they can't heal his nuclear burnt skin. He wasn't born a mutant like an X-man. He's a mutate if anything.

[eabaker]

KPA's quoted post pretty much sums up all the thoughts I've been too tired to put together into coherent form on this topic.

As a symbol, and specifically in regards to the original movie, Godzilla works best if the bomb changed him.

As for whether or not that makes sense in later movies... I don't think it matters. Those are different movies. Sure, it's weird that the second Godzilla would experience an identical transformation, and that Minya would, but what was true in the first movie doesn't actually have to be true in subsequent ones, and, more importantly, what was conceived for subsequent movies cannot reasonably be retroactively applied to the original.

[KaijuCanuck]

KPA's quoted post pretty much sums up all the thoughts I've been too tired to put together into coherent form on this topic.

As a symbol, and specifically in regards to the original movie, Godzilla works best if the bomb changed him.

As for whether or not that makes sense in later movies... I don't think it matters. Those are different movies. Sure, it's weird that the second Godzilla would experience an identical transformation, and that Minya would, but what was true in the first movie doesn't actually have to be true in subsequent ones, and, more importantly, what was conceived for subsequent movies cannot reasonably be retroactively applied to the original.

I think the bomb changing godzilla is obviously a very valid interpretation, but I don't think interpretations otherwise are unreasonable - any work of art is open to interpretation regardless of what the creators intended, and are certainly open to be seen in conjunction with related works. For example, 54 Godzilla's origin becomes very specific when viewed in the context of the heisei series, but I doubt very much Tanaka, Honda, or any of the original creators, had any specific conception of a godzillasaurus.

[eabaker]

KPA's quoted post pretty much sums up all the thoughts I've been too tired to put together into coherent form on this topic.

As a symbol, and specifically in regards to the original movie, Godzilla works best if the bomb changed him.

As for whether or not that makes sense in later movies... I don't think it matters. Those are different movies. Sure, it's weird that the second Godzilla would experience an identical transformation, and that Minya would, but what was true in the first movie doesn't actually have to be true in subsequent ones, and, more importantly, what was conceived for subsequent movies cannot reasonably be retroactively applied to the original.

I think the bomb changing godzilla is obviously a very valid interpretation, but I don't think interpretations otherwise are unreasonable -

I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise; I was simply explaining why I favor that interpretation.

any work of art is open to interpretation regardless of what the creators intended,

I probably use the phrase "death of the author" on this board more often than any other poster.

and are certainly open to be seen in conjunction with related works.[/qupte]

Yes, but subsequent works don't have to be taken into account. They can be a lens for re-interpreting, but they cannot conclusively re-define.

For example, 54 Godzilla's origin becomes very specific when viewed in the context of the heisei series, but I doubt very much Tanaka, Honda, or any of the original creators, had any specific conception of a godzillasaurus.

Absolutely. My point is simply that, while 54 definitively informs the Heisei films, the Heisei films do not definitively inform the 54 film. When I'm watching Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah, I watch with the understanding that it treats the 54 film as part of its continuity, and thus, in that context, the original Godzilla was also a mutated Godzillasaurus. But one's holding that to be true of the 54 film while considering it in relation to GvsKG doesn't mean that one must hold it to be true of the 54 film at any other time.