Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

For the discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released before 1980.
edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by edgaguirus »

It's possible to find connections between non Godzilla films, but most aren't meant to be. They stand out by themselves, or have vague connections to other films.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

User avatar
tlyon2
Yojimbo
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:57 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by tlyon2 »

edgaguirus wrote:It's possible to find connections between non Godzilla films, but most aren't meant to be. They stand out by themselves, or have vague connections to other films.
Well I pretty much found all the vague ones out there including Space amoeba which is only just some of the same music from King Kong vs Godzilla. The rest of the non Godzilla films with much stronger ties out there are easy to find, I've pretty much found them all now but I still haven't seen The War In Space yet!

It's the last one I still need to see to find any and all connections to the Godzilla series or to one of the other non Godzilla films. If there's one in there of any kind I will find it!

But at least I can say for sure The Three Treasures has no connection of any kind except for being made by many of the same people who made a lot of the Kuiju films during that time but otherwise that's it!

User avatar
MaxRebo320
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2893
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:56 pm
Location: albaquarky
Contact:

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by MaxRebo320 »

I don't think there's anything wrong with considering many of the Kaiju/Tokusatsu films of the Showa era to be set in the same universe, just as long as one realizes this probably wasn't Toho's intention and that irreconcilables exist because of it.

This does of course, require some speculation that can't be proven from anything within the films. For example, why does the moon exist in Destroy All Monsters (set in 1999) when it was destroyed in Gorath (set in 1982)? I guess it's possible humanity reconstructed it using it's remnants and technology available. But nowhere in either film does it imply such a thing.

As for King Kong Escapes, I remember hearing a theory waaay back that the film is perhaps set sometime in the future, to the point where Kong was overshadowed by the various other monster attacks, becoming somewhat of a legend. Not to mention, the hovercrafts and the like seen in the film don't exactly scream 1967, though you can argue the alien technology discovered helped create those. Kong's smaller size is something I can look past, or it can of course be a different Kong.
Beta Capsule Reviews - Your Guide to Ultraman & other Tokusatsu episode-by-episode!
https://betacapsulereviews.wordpress.com
three wrote:leave me be maxrebo! damn you and your ability to play the game here....

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by edgaguirus »

The moon came back because it's actually an egg. When the moon was destroyed in Gorath, the space dragon emerged and laid a new egg.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

User avatar
tlyon2
Yojimbo
Posts: 39
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:57 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by tlyon2 »

MaxRebo320 wrote:I don't think there's anything wrong with considering many of the Kaiju/Tokusatsu films of the Showa era to be set in the same universe, just as long as one realizes this probably wasn't Toho's intention and that irreconcilables exist because of it.

This does of course, require some speculation that can't be proven from anything within the films. For example, why does the moon exist in Destroy All Monsters (set in 1999) when it was destroyed in Gorath (set in 1982)? I guess it's possible humanity reconstructed it using it's remnants and technology available. But nowhere in either film does it imply such a thing.

As for King Kong Escapes, I remember hearing a theory waaay back that the film is perhaps set sometime in the future, to the point where Kong was overshadowed by the various other monster attacks, becoming somewhat of a legend. Not to mention, the hovercrafts and the like seen in the film don't exactly scream 1967, though you can argue the alien technology discovered helped create those. Kong's smaller size is something I can look past, or it can of course be a different Kong.
That's pretty much one of the two theories I came up with myself too! Using tech to reconstructed the moon, the only other way is to take one of the moons from another planet out in space somewhere using the same xilians tech that was used in Invasion Of The Astro-Monster to move the moon.

No doubt it took a lot of ships to move it near earth.

User avatar
ProfessorBeats
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Contact:

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by ProfessorBeats »

I guess if my earlier post didn't make it clear, I think all - if not the majority - of Toho's Tokusatsu kaiju special effects films are canon. That doesn't necessarily mean they exist within the SAME timeline, but clearly Toho considers them all something of a piece. Hence the cameos of Moguera or Gorath or Baragon or the Gargantuas sprinkled throughout numerous later films. I think many have been wise to point out that they all vaguely seem to fit together, but that the intent clearly wasn't that they were all one massive story at the time. Still, I think the wisest comments are in pointing out that by exclusively collecting only the Godzilla-centric entries (and don't get me wrong, those ones are my favorites) you're really missing out on some great films that were absolutely cut from the same creative tapestry.
Agent of Seatopia

User avatar
Chrispy_G
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1830
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 11:02 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Chrispy_G »

Sure, and even the Godzilla films themselves sometimes have inconsistencies from film to film.

The typical line of thinking for a lot is to look at the Showa Godzilla films as a single series, but there are some that don't even really feel that the Showa Godzilla films truly function as a 15 film franchise, and that it should be broken up into sub-groups due to different styles/tones.
"I'm saying a prayer, George. A prayer for the whole world."

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

I'm really of the feeling that the Showa Godzilla films should be taken as 15 separate films, which share varying degrees of similarity with some of the other films, but are not bound by those similarities to any significant continuity. Take what is of use from previous movies, throw the rest away.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Chrispy_G
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1830
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 11:02 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Chrispy_G »

Which is ultimately a way of giving anyone a free pass to sort of mix and match the films in their heads as they see fit.
"I'm saying a prayer, George. A prayer for the whole world."

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Well, anyone is free to do that with anything.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
ProfessorBeats
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:45 am
Location: Salt Lake City
Contact:

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by ProfessorBeats »

Right, and that's absolutely what they did. Banno certainly wasn't concerned with continuity when he made Godzilla vs. Hedorah. I think it's fairly arguable Honda didn't care much for it when making Destroy All Monsters either - considering how many dead kaiju reappear without explanation (I know, it's in the future, but my point still stands). They all fit, but inconsistently, and that's okay. Yesterday me and my wife had the day off from work, and we spent the whole afternoon watching the original Sam Raimi Evil Dead trilogy (Evil Dead, Evil Dead 2: Dead By Dawn, and Army of Darkness). That trilogy is clearly a trilogy, meant to be a single continuity, but each film recaps the previous one by more or less picking and choosing what did and didn't happen. There's behind the scenes reasons as to why that happened (different studios behind each one, time between installments, and basic simplicity) but anyone who wants to whine and cry about whether or not those films are meant to be a continuation of each other - despite the massive discrepancies in continuity - is flat-out wrong. I think many of us have been spoiled by the recent decades of hard continuity, made popular by things like Star Wars or whatever, but before the late 80s, hard continuity was hard to come by. Franchises like Romeros Night of the Living Dead saga are so loosely cobbled together, one might not know that they are of a piece at all - let alone things like 007, where the main characters are haphazardly recast, while certain events remain in continuity (Blofeld is particularly aggravating in classic Bond, due to never being portrayed the same way, yet having previous actions still weigh in on newer ones). That semi-open-ended take to continuity in film franchises was just how things were done back in the day, and Godzilla is certainly no exception. Whether they intended everything to be connnected or not isn't as important as the fact that they did the pick n choose thing, and in hindsight, it's all somewhat of a piece, and might as well be accepted as such. I personally enjoy watching all the Godzilla films, along with Toho's other sci fi fantasy romps, ending with Destroy All Monsters as a chronological climax - and that's fine. Others might prefer just watching the ones with monsters, or maybe just the ones with Godzilla. That's fine too. But to say my way is "wrong" because it has more entries is as silly as me telling them that they are wrong because they maybe excluded Mothra or Rodan or Varan or something.
Agent of Seatopia

StAiRcAsE KiTtY
Terminated
Terminated
Posts: 697
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:14 am

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by StAiRcAsE KiTtY »

The original Mothra is not canon to the Showa Godzilla series. Yes, Toho says the Shobojin are the same ones, but Toho also tries and say Gorosaurus is the same one from King Kong Escapes that's in Destroy All Monsters despite King Kong Escapes also not being canon. From what I've gathered (and understand) the only non-Godzilla film that is outright canon beyond fan speculation is the original Rodan. Films like Varan, Frankenstein Conquers the World, War of the Gargantuas, YOG and Dogora can easily fit in but it's never been actually said by Toho if they're actually in the canon or not. I have yet to see YOG and Dogora so I can't comment on them myself, but I don't see why Varan, FCTW and WotG can't be canon.
You want a battle...
Here's a war!


RIP, Judas. An amazing idea, gone before it was created.

User avatar
Ivo-goji
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2818
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:54 am

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Ivo-goji »

Denying that crossover films like Mothra vs Godzilla are crossover films ignores common sense.

You can't say movies like Mothra and War of the Gargantuas are canon to the Kiryu saga (which we know without question that they are) then claim they aren't canon to the Showa series, it's absurd.
Resized Image
Kaiju-King42 wrote: Welcome to Toho Kingdom, where every conceivable opinion, no matter how outlandish or unpopular, is a possibility among the population.

StAiRcAsE KiTtY
Terminated
Terminated
Posts: 697
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:14 am

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by StAiRcAsE KiTtY »

Ivo-goji wrote:Denying that crossover films like Mothra vs Godzilla are crossover films ignores common sense.
Despite by dislike for that movie, even I know this is fact. Mothra is completely unknown in the movie. The Mothra that Godzilla fights is much smaller. The larva are much smaller. And, again, I bring up the fact that nobody knew of Mothra, her island, and her worshippers. Mothra being non-canon to the Showa Godzilla universe has been a widely known fact, at least on the FB groups and other places and people I've talked to. It's a crossover movie, yes. But in the same way King Kong vs. Godzilla is a crossover movie, it made a new version of Mothra to fight Godzilla instead of using the original (and her timeline), in which Mothra would have been FAR larger than Godzilla. They even made her old and weak so that fight would be more fair.
You can't say movies like Mothra and War of the Gargantuas are canon to the Kiryu saga (which we know without question that they are) then claim they aren't canon to the Showa series, it's absurd.
Wait, what? We're talking two entirely different timelines here. Encase you aren't aware, the Kiryu saga is not in the same canonical timeline as something like Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla and Terror of Mechagodzilla.
You want a battle...
Here's a war!


RIP, Judas. An amazing idea, gone before it was created.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Can we please find a way to clearly distinguish "continuity" from "canon"? ALL Toho-produced/approved Godzilla movies (and tie-in materials) are in the Godzilla canon; many of them are in different continuities. All Toho-produced kaiju movies are in the Toho kaiju canon; they are not all in any specific Godzilla continuity.

Continuity is by far the more useful word and relevant concept in a thread like this.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Goji
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 6476
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:37 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Goji »

^ You're the only one who seems to get this.
Chrispy_G wrote:Which is ultimately a way of giving anyone a free pass to sort of mix and match the films in their heads as they see fit.
eabaker wrote:Well, anyone is free to do that with anything.
Yeeap. It's pretty much a non-statement.
ProfessorBeats wrote: Others might prefer just watching the ones with monsters, or maybe just the ones with Godzilla.
I've literally never experienced this. Is this even a thing?
Ivo-goji wrote:Denying that crossover films like Mothra vs Godzilla are crossover films ignores common sense.

You can't say movies like Mothra and War of the Gargantuas are canon to the Kiryu saga (which we know without question that they are) then claim they aren't canon to the Showa series, it's absurd.
Not sure how it's "absurd" considering the Kiryu saga sets up it's own universe, and therefore, it's own continuity. I thought this much was obvious?
UltramanGoji wrote: Cranky because you got mad I implied GFW isn't a good movie aren't you
Chrispy_G wrote:I'll say it one last time, Trump wins in a landslide.
I'll gladly eat crow if it doesn't turn out that way....but at this point it feels painfully obvious, as it has for months.

User avatar
Ivo-goji
EDF Instructor
Posts: 2818
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:54 am

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Ivo-goji »

That's not my point. My point is if Toho is willing to say Mothra or War of the Gargantuas is in the same continuity as the Godzilla series in the 2000s, why would they have had a different attitude towards them in the 60s? What -basis- is there to assume that Toho viewed their kaiju films differently back then?
Resized Image
Kaiju-King42 wrote: Welcome to Toho Kingdom, where every conceivable opinion, no matter how outlandish or unpopular, is a possibility among the population.

StAiRcAsE KiTtY
Terminated
Terminated
Posts: 697
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:14 am

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by StAiRcAsE KiTtY »

Ivo-goji wrote:That's not my point. My point is if Toho is willing to say Mothra or War of the Gargantuas is in the same continuity as the Godzilla series in the 2000s, why would they have had a different attitude towards them in the 60s? What -basis- is there to assume that Toho viewed their kaiju films differently back then?
Have you ever watched Mothra vs. Godzilla for one? Again, nobody knew of Mothra, her island, her egg, her worshipers or anything of the sort. War of the Gargantuas has never been directly said if it is or isn't part of the Showa timeline, it is entirely up to a fan's point of view.
You want a battle...
Here's a war!


RIP, Judas. An amazing idea, gone before it was created.

User avatar
Chrispy_G
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1830
Joined: Mon May 23, 2016 11:02 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Chrispy_G »

Goji, you've NEVER experienced someone who only watches the films featuring Godzilla? In my experience that is a pretty common thing, people refer to 'all the Godzilla movies', talk about 'watching them all', owning them all, etc...

Heck, even I didn't branch out into non-Godzilla Toho Kaiju films until just recently, for my money, the Godzilla franchise was just always the films featuring Godzilla.
"I'm saying a prayer, George. A prayer for the whole world."

User avatar
Goji
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 6476
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:37 pm

Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Goji »

*edit incoming*
Last edited by Goji on Mon Jun 06, 2016 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
UltramanGoji wrote: Cranky because you got mad I implied GFW isn't a good movie aren't you
Chrispy_G wrote:I'll say it one last time, Trump wins in a landslide.
I'll gladly eat crow if it doesn't turn out that way....but at this point it feels painfully obvious, as it has for months.

Post Reply