Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

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UltramanGoji
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by UltramanGoji »

I think he means people who only watch the films with "Godzilla" in the title, but the way he worded it makes it sound like they only watch the solo films.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Goji »

Chrispy_G wrote:Goji, you've NEVER experienced someone who only watches the films featuring Godzilla? In my experience that is a pretty common thing, people refer to 'all the Godzilla movies', talk about 'watching them all', owning them all, etc...

Heck, even I didn't branch out into non-Godzilla Toho Kaiju films until just recently, for my money, the Godzilla franchise was just always the films featuring Godzilla.
My bad, I initially took that as someone who only watches Godzilla movies that only feature Godzilla; which would be ridiculous considering that's only two movies, not counting the '98 interpretation.

Yes, that's pretty common, but also incredibly unfortunate considering Toho's output of science fiction and fantasy films outside of the Godzilla series, especially from the '50s-'70s. A lot of people willfully ignore them, for one reason or another.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by GalacticPetey »

Especially Matango, which I think is one of Honda's strongest films. Up there with Gojira.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by UltramanGoji »

The other sci-fi films are a blast. I'm a huge fan of Space Amoeba, War of the Gargantuas, Matango, and Varan.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by GalacticPetey »

I actually have Space Amoeba coming in the mail later this week. Excited to finally see that mvovie.

I'd also like to throw in a good word for Frankenstein. I like the idea of a more human monster and Baragon is very cool too. Mothra is another good one.
I can't believe that Godzilla was the only surviving member of its species, but if we continue conducting nuclear tests, it's possible that another Godzilla might appear somewhere in the world again.

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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Using lack of continuity as grounds to discount any movies from the canon seems truly bizarre to me; it would basically mean that the canon would have to be limited entirely to the first two Godzilla movies.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Ivo-goji »

StAiRcAsE KiTtY wrote: Have you ever watched Mothra vs. Godzilla for one? Again, nobody knew of Mothra, her island, her egg, her worshipers or anything of the sort. War of the Gargantuas has never been directly said if it is or isn't part of the Showa timeline, it is entirely up to a fan's point of view.
I've watched Mothra vs Godzilla many times, and nothing about the characters' dialogue suggests that Mothra is new to them. Quite the opposite, when our trio of heroes go to discuss returning Mothra's egg to her, they are the only three people who have seen Mothra in the movie, yet the media has no problem believing that she exists, even Torahata and Kumayama immediately recognize Mothra's name without need for further elaboration- meaning Mothra's existence is common knowledge.

Nobody knows where the egg came from in Mothra vs Godzilla because nobody ever saw the egg in Mothra except the island folk. The rest of your observations are incorrect- everyone in Mothra vs Godzilla already knows about Mothra, the Shobijin, and Infant Island and behave accordingly.

War of the Gargantuas is a sequel to Frankenstein vs Baragon, which crossed over with Destroy All Monsters. The movie itself features Oodako from King Kong vs Godzilla, the JSDF general from King Kong vs Godzilla, and introduces the Maser weapon that would reappear in three Showa era Godzilla films. That's a completely solid crossover as intuitive as Rodan or Mothra; the logical conclusion is that's part of Godzilla's continuity.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Terasawa »

Ivo-goji wrote:War of the Gargantuas... features Oodako from King Kong vs Godzilla, the JSDF general from King Kong vs Godzilla...
Jun Tazaki is in both films but I don't believe he's supposed to be playing the same character. Likewise, the giant octopus in WOTG is likely just another giant octopus and not necessarily the same creature in KKvG.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Ivo-goji wrote:
StAiRcAsE KiTtY wrote: Have you ever watched Mothra vs. Godzilla for one? Again, nobody knew of Mothra, her island, her egg, her worshipers or anything of the sort. War of the Gargantuas has never been directly said if it is or isn't part of the Showa timeline, it is entirely up to a fan's point of view.
I've watched Mothra vs Godzilla many times, and nothing about the characters' dialogue suggests that Mothra is new to them. Quite the opposite, when our trio of heroes go to discuss returning Mothra's egg to her, they are the only three people who have seen Mothra in the movie, yet the media has no problem believing that she exists, even Torahata and Kumayama immediately recognize Mothra's name without need for further elaboration- meaning Mothra's existence is common knowledge.
^This, 100%. While there is no dialogue in the movie that confirms the specific events of the original Mothra, there is also no dialogue that rules out those events, and not a single character needs an explanation of what Mothra is. Mothra is a known quantity. You could also argue that, in the absence of any specific references to Dr. Yamane, Dr. Serizawa, the Oxygen Destroyer, etc., we can rule out the evens of Gojira from this timeline.

As for details like the size of the Mothra larva, that's the kind of continuity quibble that simply can't be considered meaningful when talking about movies that were written and produced with little to no regard for this kind of puzzle-piece series construction. As has been pointed out elsewhere, taking continuity concerns to that level basically rules out the idea of any of the Showa movies existing in the same continuity as one another.

At the very least, it is safe to say that something akin to the events of the original Mothra occurred prior to the events of Mothra vs. Godzilla, which is really as much as you can say about any Showa continuity.
War of the Gargantuas is a sequel to Frankenstein vs Baragon, which crossed over with Destroy All Monsters. The movie itself features Oodako from King Kong vs Godzilla, the JSDF general from King Kong vs Godzilla, and introduces the Maser weapon that would reappear in three Showa era Godzilla films. That's a completely solid crossover as intuitive as Rodan or Mothra; the logical conclusion is that's part of Godzilla's continuity.
I mean, I suppose a case could be made that Frankenstein takes place in two distinct continuities, one in which War of the Gargantuas happens and Destroy All Monsters does not, and another in which War of the Gargantuas does not happen and Destroy All Monsters does; but that's just getting needlessly convoluted when talking about movies where "continuity" was always a loose patchwork at most.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Ivo-goji »

Continuity in the Showa series being "loose patchwork" is a subjective judgment, one I wouldn't necessarily disagree with- but characters and objects shared across multiple films constitute objective evidence.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by BlacktimusPrime »

I more or less consider all the Toho sci-fi and kaiju movies from the showa era to be in continuity with each other (with the possible exception of All Monsters Attack). As another poster pointed out earlier, fandoms have become so accustomed to every single minute detail from a previous movie being taken into account for the next one that a large portion of us have become spoiled and forgotten how things used to be. Remember Batman Forever being a sequel to Batman Returns? "Soft reboots" weren't really a thing back them, so I feel they should be looked at accordingly.

As for the above poster's statement, I agree. Gojira, godzilla raids again, mothra, mvsg, gtthm, gvsmz, gvsmg, and tomg make a solid argument I feel that a stronger argument can be made for them being in continuity then not.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Ivo-goji wrote:Continuity in the Showa series being "loose patchwork" is a subjective judgment, one I wouldn't necessarily disagree with- but characters and objects shared across multiple films constitute objective evidence.
I think the fact that there is room for subjective opinion about the continuity in the movies is, in itself, evidence that said continuity is not a tightly woven tapestry. Characters and objects shared across multiple films are mostly evidence that the writers/producers found these things beneficial to their storytelling, or to marketing; or that they wanted to create a sense of continuity among the movies.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Spuro »

The loose patchwork continuity of the Showa series is part of the fun for me. One only needs to look through this thread to realize that different people include many different movies under what they would consider to be in the same timeline as the Godzilla films. I see it as a fun way of being able to share thoughts and theories.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by eabaker »

Kaiju-King42 wrote:The loose patchwork continuity of the Showa series is part of the fun for me.
Agreed, both for the reasons you gave (discussing ideas/interpretations is fun), and also because while watching the movies it's nice to be able to disengage from the continuity of the series as a whole and just appreciate what the filmmakers were doing with that individual story.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Chrispy_G »

I enjoy it because it sort of gives me 'freedom' to have different marathons including and excluding different films to see how they play out and how the series feels when you 'throw something in' or 'leave something out' and if it stands up as a whole for better or worse.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by GodzillaRangerPrime »

So assuming these films are in a loose continuity, would this be the order they are set on the timeline?
Anything missing?

- The Birth Of Japan (????)
- Gojira (1954)
- Godzilla Raids Again (1955)
- Rodan (1956)
- The Mysterians (1957)
- H-Man (1958)
- Varan The Unbelievable (1958)
- Mothra (1961)
- King Kong vs Godzilla (1962)
- Matango (1963)
- Atragon (1963)
- Mothra vs Godzilla (1964)
- Dogora The Space Monster (1964)
- Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster (1964)
- The Battle In Outer Space (1965)
- Frankenstein Conquers The World (1965)
- Invasion Of The Astro Monster (1965)
- The War Of The Gargantuas (1966)
- Godzilla vs The Sea Monster (1966)
- King Kong Escapes (1967)
- Son Of Godzilla (1967)
- Latitude Zero (1969)
- All Monsters Attack (1969)
- Space Amoeba (1970)
- Godzilla vs Hedorah (1971)
- Godzilla vs Gigan (1972)
- Godzilla vs Megalon (1973)
- Zone Fighter (1973)
- Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla (1974)
- Terror Of Mechagodzilla (1975)
- Gorath (1982)
- The War In Space (1988)
- Destroy All Monsters (1999)
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

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GodzillaRangerPrime wrote:So assuming these films are in a loose continuity, would this be the order they are set on the timeline?
Anything missing?

- The Birth Of Japan (????)
- Gojira (1954)
- Godzilla Raids Again (1955)
- Rodan (1956)
- The Mysterians (1957)
- H-Man (1958)
- Varan The Unbelievable (1958)
- Mothra (1961)
- King Kong vs Godzilla (1962)
- Matango (1963)
- Atragon (1963)
- Mothra vs Godzilla (1964)
- Dogora The Space Monster (1964)
- Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster (1964)
- The Battle In Outer Space (1965)
- Frankenstein Conquers The World (1965)
- Invasion Of The Astro Monster (1965)
- The War Of The Gargantuas (1966)
- Godzilla vs The Sea Monster (1966)
- King Kong Escapes (1967)
- Son Of Godzilla (1967)
- Latitude Zero (1969)
- All Monsters Attack (1969)
- Space Amoeba (1970)
- Godzilla vs Hedorah (1971)
- Godzilla vs Gigan (1972)
- Godzilla vs Megalon (1973)
- Zone Fighter (1973)
- Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla (1974)
- Terror Of Mechagodzilla (1975)
- Gorath (1982)
- The War In Space (1988)
- Destroy All Monsters (1999)
Leave off The Birth Of Japan along with The H-Man and you got them all! But the order of some of them in the timeline is not quite right put Frankenstein Conquers the World in between Varan and Mothra. Then switch spots with Atragon and Matango, next go The Battle In Outer Space followed by both Ghidorah The Three Headed Monster and Invasion Of The Astro Monster.

But the rest are in order as they should be.

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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by JVM »

The official Showa timeline is the original fifteen Godzilla films, with DAM moved to the end, and this is the timeline Toho has used for years. I'm not sure if official publications even reference "Rodan" and "Mothra" in the same timeline, even though most kaiju fans accept that, as shown here.

Everything else is ambiguous, but I find it worth noting that any arrangement of Toho's films from this era can, will, and does present discrepancies, and it's far from out of the blue to assume that some version of each film did occur in the timeline, if not the same story as filmed. Early versions of "Godzilla vs. Gigan" involved King Ghidorah's resurrection and the reference to Manda in "The Terror of MechaGodzilla" not only uses stock footage from "Destroy All Monsters", but makes no sense if neither that film nor "Atoragon" took place in continuity. Humans know of the existence of a second Anguirus in "All Monsters Attack" and "Godzilla vs. Gigan" before he makes a public appearance. Even Toho's version clearly has flaws, is essentially what I'm getting at.

The 'loose patchwork' is a good way to put it, and personally, it's my favorite thing about this continuity. Everything is connected, and nothing is. Most of the movies make sense without any prior context, but you can do a marathon of several and see all sorts of little connections - and maybe they mean something, and maybe they don't.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by Chrispy_G »

The whole thing has a fun little 'choose your own adventure' kind of vibe to it. You can pretty freely include and exclude whatever you want...with no insurmountable issues really coming up.

As others have said, even including everything creates bumps along the road, opting to jigger with things doesn't create and more or less problems than what any "official" version would also have.

I've really toyed around with the notion of All Monsters Attack-through-Godzilla vs Megalon occurring in a weird sort of 'pocket universe' of a Child's fantasy. The concept of All Monsters Attack, that each one is sort of a fantasy in the head of a child. When I have a marathon of the original 15...those 4 just feel jarringly different in tone and structure.

But for what it is worth, Godzilla vs MechaGodzilla and Terror of MechaGodzilla always feel like they could easily be occurring in the 'future', AFTER events of Destroy All Monsters. It makes a nice transition. You get the big crossover where all of the monsters team to bring down the 'big bad' of King Ghidorah...and then we get a two-part 'finale' where Godzilla fights his arguable perfect nemesis, a robot version of himself.

It just feels "aesthetically pleasing" regardless of any factual argument for any of it.
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Re: Are these all the Godzilla/tie ins toho showa universe?

Post by tlyon2 »

I got my copy of Dogora The Space Monster and notice that some of the music in this one shows up in one of the other Godzilla films.

Another minor connection found, at times the music is the only thing I can ever find to tie it with the other G films or other non G films. Of course the big tie in is from Ghidrah The Three Headed Monster as I talked about a picture of Dogora found in the background in that film which you can search back in this thread to read.

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