Do you hate the showa series for being campy

[GodzillaSpawn]

^lol me too

[Spuro]

Some of you guys reeaaalllly need to get laid.

Pretty much what I was thinking after seeing all the comments on that picture.

[Carthormerr]

We're talking about wether or not something is ridiculous. It doesn't matter if we're talking about humans doing it or monsters doing it. If it's ridiculous, it's ridiculous.

This is true, but most of the time ridiculous is gonna come in degrees. The word ridiculous is not an absolute blanket term. People doing out the ordinary things? Ehh yeah maybe ridiculous. Giant monsters? Very likely even more ridiculous. Giant monsters having human gestures, doing unnatural things, etc... even more ridiculous.

To you maybe, but if you think about it, a lot of of things about North By Northwest, Psycho, Vertigo, Rope, Shadow Of A Doubt and Strangers On A Train can be ridiculous too. That doesn't stop them from being good movies, but I'm just saying, there are parts of those movies which are ridiculous, yet no one considers them campy. To me, the same goes for the Showa Godzilla films.

I haven't seen all of these so I can't say for sure, but I'm assuming they had mostly realism in them with a few outliers that were ridiculous. Again haven't seen all of them. But the basic premise in a G flick requires you to A: accept that giant monsters exist. B: accept that these animals are actually far more intelligent than you would imagine.
C: accept that these animals can do some things beyond the laws of physics. D: etc etc etc.

In other words, G films have more out of the ordinary things from the get go in them that the viewer needs to accept in order to fully enjoy the movie. Again I love the Showa films, they are my favorite era. Just a general Q, do you consider the original Star Trek series episode in which Kirk fights the slow moving lizard man to be campy?

[GodzillaSpawn]

Some of you guys reeaaalllly need to get laid.

Despite your negative implication, I agree. Hell, even with a steady girlfriend of six years I still get the "need to get laid" feeling. I know the day I begin to lose that, I'm finally getting old. But I hear viagra does wonders...??

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Giant monsters? Very likely even more ridiculous. Giant monsters having human gestures, doing unnatural things, etc... even more ridiculous.

I would say birds turning on humanity, guys fighting on the top of Mount Rushmore, a guy who murders only fat wealthy old widows because they're "nothing but swine", a guy who murdered his own mother and then developed a split personality of the very same person he murdered, and all of Vertigo are just as ridiculous as giant monsters.

You really have to stretch your suspension of disbelief in order to buy any of that stuff, much in the same way you must for giant monsters.

I haven't seen all of these so I can't say for sure, but I'm assuming they had mostly realism in them with a few outliers that were ridiculous.

And as I've made clear, you can say the same thing for the Showa Godzilla films. Outside of a few outliers, the Showa Godzilla films attempt to be as realistic as possible.

But the basic premise in a G flick requires you to A: accept that giant monsters exist.

Suspension of disbelief. Every work of fiction has that element, wether it's Godzilla films, Disney films, Hitchcock films, horror films, etc., it's always in place.

B: accept that these animals are actually far more intelligent than you would imagine.

...Since when? I've always felt these monsters are, for the most part, as intelligent as your average animal. I don't think they're as intelligent as you're making them out to be.

C: accept that these animals can do some things beyond the laws of physics.

Again, suspension of disbelief. If it weren't for that, kaiju would never be able to exist. If you apply the laws of physics to monsters, they would never be able to stand up, let alone fight other monsters. They'd be crushed underneath their own weight. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to say, "I'm willing to believe that these kinds of creatures can exist in this world."

Really, all this comes back to this quote from Gojira-Fan:

It also has to deals with suspension of disbelief. A lot of blockbuster films put out by Hollywood could be seen as "campy", because they rely on high-concept ideas that are ridiculous in our reality. Yet the public perception of these films isn't "camp".

In other words, G films have more out of the ordinary things from the get go in them that the viewer needs to accept in order to fully enjoy the movie.

And the same can be said for many Hitchcock films, including quite a few of his best films.

Just a general Q, do you consider the original Star Trek series episode in which Kirk fights the slow moving lizard man to be campy?

Not particularly. The effects aren't very good, but that's not something that should be used to determine campiness. Given the situation that was used to set up the fight between Kirk and the Gorn, it makes sense what Kirk would do, what the Gorn would do, etc. So, in terms of the universe of Star Trek and the story of the episode, that fight makes sense. Therefore, I don't find it campy.

[Julia Bristow]

Some of you guys reeaaalllly need to get laid.

You offering?

Okay then, let's get this over with. ::unzips pants::

*smacks Gawdziller in the head* How rude of you

[Biogoji]

Some of you guys reeaaalllly need to get laid.

You offering?

Okay then, let's get this over with. ::unzips pants::

*smacks Gawdziller in the head* How rude of you

Nice one.

[Carthormerr]

I would say birds turning on humanity, guys fighting on the top of Mount Rushmore, a guy who murders only fat wealthy old widows because they're "nothing but swine", a guy who murdered his own mother and then developed a split personality of the very same person he murdered, and all of Vertigo are just as ridiculous as giant monsters.

You really have to stretch your suspension of disbelief in order to buy any of that stuff, much in the same way you must for giant monsters.

And as I've made clear, you can say the same thing for the Showa Godzilla films. Outside of a few outliers, the Showa Godzilla films attempt to be as realistic as possible.

Well Gotengo you kinda skipped over what I was saying there. Obviously "suspension of disbelief" is required for about any movie. More though is asked in almost any case that involves something giant. Human drama on the other hand, even crazy stuff, could actually really happen, usually. Crazy human drama requires less "suspension of disbelief" than a giant monster.

...Since when? I've always felt these monsters are, for the most part, as intelligent as your average animal. I don't think they're as intelligent as you're making them out to be.

Umm what? They outright talk to one another. TALK. Full conversations. There is even cross species communication and coordination. G is constantly "figuring things out" throughout the series. Hedorah is a fine example with the generators at the end... And using objects as weapons. Kong is the only one that can slide with that one to me

Again, suspension of disbelief. If it weren't for that, kaiju would never be able to exist. If you apply the laws of physics to monsters, they would never be able to stand up, let alone fight other monsters. They'd be crushed underneath their own weight. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to say, "I'm willing to believe that these kinds of creatures can exist in this world."

I don't think the average person knows anything about that science fact, so it probably doesn't matter.Whether they can support their body weight is one thing, hurling/flying across the landscape is another story altogether.

Not particularly. The effects aren't very good, but that's not something that should be used to determine campiness. Given the situation that was used to set up the fight between Kirk and the Gorn, it makes sense what Kirk would do, what the Gorn would do, etc. So, in terms of the universe of Star Trek and the story of the episode, that fight makes sense. Therefore, I don't find it campy.

Well not surprising in the least you would say this. *smh*

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Crazy human drama requires less "suspension of disbelief" than a giant monster.

I would say they require the same amount of "suspension of disbelief". The examples I gave are just as ridiculous as giant monsters. If you remove the element of suspension of disbelief, I wouldn't buy for a second that Norman Bates' mother could suddenly take over the body of her son to kill women who showed interest in Norman.

They outright talk to one another. TALK. Full conversations.

...Once. They did that one time. That would be the exception, rather than the norm.

Hedorah is a fine example with the generators at the end

I'd say that was more of fluk. Godzilla aimed his ray at Hedorah, missed and hit the generators, which fried Hedorah. Godzilla noticed that hitting the generators hurt Hedorah, and continued to do that. Animals with any basic level of intelligence would have done the same thing. That doesn't give Godzilla higher level intelligence.

And using objects as weapons.

Many animals have been known to use objects as tools or weapons.

I don't think the average person knows anything about that science fact, so it probably doesn't matter.

Except that it does matter. Wether or not most people know that, the fact remains its scientifically true that kaiju like Godzilla and Rodan could never exist in our world. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to say they could exist.

Whether they can support their body weight is one thing, hurling/flying across the landscape is another story altogether.

And examples like that are few and far between, hardly worth bringing up.

[Carthormerr]

I would say they require the same amount of "suspension of disbelief". The examples I gave are just as ridiculous as giant monsters. If you remove the element of suspension of disbelief, I wouldn't buy for a second that Norman Bates' mother could suddenly take over the body of her son to kill women who showed interest in Norman.

LOL what? Norman had a split personality. He was insane. One of the personalities would probably overtake the other. You are outright wrong here. A person with multiple personalities actually exists. Giant monsters do not exist. Therefore it is easier to believe insane elements in Psycho compared to the existence of giant monsters...... because it actually exists.

...Once. They did that one time. That would be the exception, rather than the norm.

Wrong again. At least 2x that I remember. Along with the fact that there is so much "teaming up" to beat other enemies.

I'd say that was more of fluk. Godzilla aimed his ray at Hedorah, missed and hit the generators, which fried Hedorah. Godzilla noticed that hitting the generators hurt Hedorah, and continued to do that. Animals with any basic level of intelligence would have done the same thing. That doesn't give Godzilla higher level intelligence.

I don't think so. An ape or dolphin might put two and two together that quickly, but not a reptile like that. G is a mutated large theropod, those dino's weren't problem solvers.

Many animals have been known to use objects as tools or weapons.

Many huh? Like what? I've never seen a reptile pick up a stone or a stick and throw it or strike something with it.

Except that it does matter. Wether or not most people know that, the fact remains its scientifically true that kaiju like Godzilla and Rodan could never exist in our world. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to say they could exist.

Well if most people are unaware of it, it's pointless to bring up. The average person just knows that "giant monsters can't exist". On the other hand, people know about split personalities. Have you ever conceded a small point ever? About anything? There was the Seatopia thing earlier "Toho Kingdom's website calls Seatopia undersea" ???

[Reaper Man]

Some of you guys reeaaalllly need to get laid.

You offering?

Okay then, let's get this over with. ::unzips pants::

*smacks Gawdziller in the head* How rude of you

[Ethan]

Regardless, Showa's tone is not a matter of opinion. A work's quality is certainly the subject of debate, since standards are different for everybody; regardless of how good or terrible a film is, there is always going to be room for debate. But the way a work is crafted is an entirely different matter. I, for instance think Dracula is a great novel, but I know it's a horror novel about vampires. Whether Stoker's text is well written or not, the contents found in those pages is undeniable. Why is this? Because style, genre, plot, etc; are independent of quality. No matter how hard one tries, you can't deny the style of the Showa (again, from 1964 onwards) series is campy. These films were concieved as intentionally silly and cartoonish. It's not belief, it's stone hard fact.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

No matter how hard one tries, you can't deny the style of the Showa (again, from 1964 onwards) series is campy.

*raises hand* I could!

As it's been said before, outside of a few outliers, such as Godzilla vs. Gigan and Godzilla vs. Megalon, the Showa Godzilla films take themselves rather seriously in their approach. Sure, there are comedic moments to many of those films, but that doesn't stop Hitchcock's films from being considered campy, which do the same things that the Showa films would do.

Any moments that one could consider silly, cartoonish, ridiculous, etc., just put yourself in the characters position. Analyze the character traits, the flaws, the strengths, personalities, the course their life has taken. Then ask yourself, "Would this character really do this in a particular situation?" And outside of a few rare instances, the answer to the question is going to be "Yes." Suddenly, that moment is no longer ridiculous. You've made sense of it, and have realized that it could very well happen, given the right set of circumstances and characters. And if something is no longer ridiculous, then it can't be campy either.

Are we starting to see why I don't think the Showa series is campy?

[Carthormerr]

*raises hand* I could!

Just not very well. You can't answer direct questions or back up what you say

Are we starting to see why I don't think the Showa series is campy?

*raises hand* I can see you're in denial!

[Rody]

I think that, perhaps, the problem here lies within how different members define "campy".

[GodzillaSpawn]

I think that, perhaps, the problem here lies within how different members define "campy".

I think everyone is (sort of) going of a definition given in this thread already. I believe the issue is, what some people think is actually realistic, believable or ridiculous.

Personally, I decided that it was a lost cause when GxG claimed that a schizophrenic serial killer was as ridiculous as giant monsters doing judo moves to each other or turning into living gadgets.

Jeffrey Dalmer would even chuckle at that one.


EDIT: And I'm quite amused with the apparent double-standard of who is allowed to spam in particular threads and who isn't. I guess it's okay, not that I mind the pictures posted I find them amusing. Irrelevant, but amusing.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Just not very well. You can't answer direct questions or back up what you say

...Since when? I've been backing up everything I've said so far in this thread to the best of my ability. Everything I feel the need to address, I've done so. As far as I'm concerned, I have answered questions and have always backed up what I've said.

*raises hand* I can see you're in denial!

As I've said before, I've made my argument as to why the Showa series isn't campy, and have never once used the word "denial". There are people who agree with my arguments, and I'd say I've done a good job my argument as a whole.

Seriously, pulling the "You're in denial" card just seems petty at this point.

[Ethan]

"It makes sense"
"That character would do that"
"It could happen"
"If it's logical it's not ridiculous"

I have some breaking news, a moment can be campy and make sense. Suppose all the moments I've listed have a reason to occur in the plot, they're backed up by coherence and by the characters' traits, they're still silly. Even if viewers make sense of Kong being put to sleep (with alcohol and music) and lifted with balloons, this doesn't make the images we see any less dumb. It's a giant gorilla, being transported above Tokyo with balloons!. I have a hard time believing the filmmakers intended this to be taken seriously.

Going back to Adam West's Batman, one could say the famous bomb scene makes sense. I'm sure it does, but how does it negate the overall camp values of the scene? Hint: It does not. Oh, and it's here in case you haven't seen the film yet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4v1hAnfy1I

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Suppose all the moments I've listed have a reason to occur in the plot, they're backed up by coherence and by the characters' traits, they're still silly.

Not for me.

I guess that's what sets us apart at this point. If I can make sense of something, find a reason for why it exists in the film, then as far as I'm concerned, it's not silly or ridiculous, and therefore not campy. For you, as you've made clear, even if you're able to make sense of it, it can still be silly or ridiculous. This is where personal experience and preference comes into play.

Even if viewers make sense of Kong being put to sleep (with alcohol and music) and lifted with balloons, this doesn't make the images we see any less dumb.

I laugh at that, but not because it's ridiculous. I laugh at it, because I can see exactly why and how that could happen, yet at the same time, I never thought or expected to see that in my life. It's just comedy involving giant monsters. It's funny, but I wouldn't call it campy.

[ScootaVaran]

I don't think Godzilla's ever been as intentionally campy as '60s Batman.

Godzilla vs Megalon says hello.

Wouldn't Final Wars fit in there aswell?