Do you hate the showa series for being campy

[Biogoji]

Does anyone here hate the showa series for being campy which made people think godzilla is noting but crap campy monster movies personally i love the showa series but what's your opinion.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I don't find the Showa series to be "campy" or "cheesy". Sure, there are three or four moments overall in the series that are downright silly, like Godzilla's dance in Invasion Of The-Astro Monster, but moments like that are few and far between. Overall, the Showa series takes itself rather seriously in its approach, as well as story and characters, along with some attempts at comedy. Sometimes the comedy works great, like in Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep and Son Of Godzilla, but other times it just falls flat, like most comedic attempts in Destroy All Monsters (outside of the comedic scenes involving Minya).

I think this what people are getting "campy" confused with. If its a bad attempt at comedy, or really any attempt at comedy, it could be mistaken as the film being campy. But, that really isn't being campy. That's just the film trying to add some comedy to the dramatic situations. It's also not like the Godzilla films are the only ones to do something like this. For example, almost all of Alfred Hitchcock films could fall into the same category (very tense and thrilling/dramatic films, filled with plenty of attempts at comedy), and I would never say one of Hitchcock's films is "campy" or "cheesy". The film just has a sense of humor and doesn't want to be all drama and tension all the time, just like the Showa Godzilla films.

[GodzillaSpawn]

I like it. It's charming because of the way the films connect with their audiences over the years. Though I don't like all the movies very much, or all the monsters. But for the most part I enjoy them the most. In some aspects, I think many parts of the Hesei series are even funnier because they often try to be more serious. It's even hard to take some of the millennium series seriously at times, except GMK. Atleast in the way it's made, if GMK is trying to be campy you know it, but overall it is successful at being a pretty serious film. But I think Godzilla is as serious as almost all the other monster movies were at the time, and then when Godzilla was made out to be the hero and aimed at children, that's when the goofy factor took off).

The Showa series makes me smile. I mean the first Godzilla--not at all. But later on in the 60's and 70's, between the fake SFX, Godzilla acting human (whether it's dancing, clapping, laughing, shuffling his feet like Muhammad Ali, shaking hands, those horrible Japanese songs at the end of the movie and Godzilla waves back at the people LOL), the horrible dubbing, it became congruent to the times. Godzilla's iconic partly for that reason--the transformation through the decades. I love the Showa series. It gave us tons of monsters, different mythology's, and it didn't worry about being too serious. But of course, the other side of the coin is that if you don't love that particular charming bit of Godzilla, then you will walk away thinking it's dumb, out-dated, cheesy entertainment made for a bunch of 7 year olds.

[Biogoji]

I like it. It's charming because of the way the films connect with their audiences over the years. Though I don't like all the movies very much, or all the monsters. But for the most part I enjoy them the most. In some aspects, I think many parts of the Hesei series are even campier because they all try to be more serious. It's even hard to take some of the millennium series seriously at times, except GMK. Atleast in the way it's made, if GMK is trying to be campy you know it, but overall it is successful at being a pretty serious film.

The Showa series makes me smile. I mean the first Godzilla--not at all. But later on in the 60's and 70's, between the fake SFX, Godzilla acting human (whether it's dancing, shuffling his feet like Muhammad Ali, shaking hands), the horrible dubbing, it became congruent to the times. Godzilla's iconic partly for that reason--the transformation through the decades. I love the Showa series. It gave us tons of monsters, different mythology's, and it didn't worry about being too serious. But of course, the other side of the coin is that if you don't love that particular charming bit of Godzilla, then you will walk away thinking it's dumb, out-dated, cheesy entertainment made for a bunch of 7 year olds.

This just made my day i agree 100%

[Bentley]

Actually I hate that other eras tried so hard not to be campy. They didn't all succeed.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

I think most people think these films are campy because they are dated by today's standards.

If that were the case, you could say just about any film made in the 30s, 40s or 50s is campy as well, because the way the characters dress, look and act are representative of when the film was made, and the distinct lack of the modern culture that we now have today in our movies.

Yeah, most movies from the 30s, 40s and 50s are dated by today's standards, but that doesn't make those movies campy. The same goes for the Showa Godzilla films.

[GodzillaSpawn]

Well, after a quick search, camp (as a style) is "when something is appealing or humorous because of its ridiculousness to the viewer". That's always been the way I felt but had a hard time describing it in that sense. And by that logic, I believe that can describe most of the Showa series, in fact, maybe even much of the Godzilla series in general. I mean if you take a person who isn't a Godzilla fan, and have them watch a 1960's Showa Godzilla film and Godzilla X Megaguirus, they will probably draw the conclusion that both are campy. When you see strings holding up monsters, pieces of rubber hanging from Godzilla, the monsters using wrestling moves on each other or playing volleyball with boulders, it is campy to most people. Even in GxMegaguirus, when Godzilla spiked the giant insect onto the ground and performed alike a 500 foot belly flop on him (looking entirely unrealistic in the process), that is what people call "cheesy". Most of us, being hardcore fans, look past or or even embrace it. But it does turn people off from the series who find things like that absurd--and it's ALOT of people. I've always felt like that campy movies or the movies that also become "Cult-classics" in many cases, which Godzilla movies are in my opinion.

It's not just Godzilla movies. Horror films have been a huge target of people who view camp as a negative, and have still had a hard time overcoming this. It's no surprise that as more people found Jason movies, Freddy Kreuger, or Michael Myers films campy, interest has died down. The same thing happened to the Godzilla franchise....several times. Halloween got a reboot. Friday the 13th got a reboot. Nightmare on Elm Street got a reboot. And we all know who has a reboot coming out in a couple years.

[GodzillaSpawn]

I think people label them campy in retrospect. For me the only 'low point' was Gigan/Megalon and they rebounded with the Mechagodzilla films but the state of the film industry lead to the end.

Personally, I think if they were kids during those times then I agree. But if they were already adults and saw what I see now, then they would still be campy. You either had fun with it, or you couldn't get into it. But I also think what is campy to one person, may not necessarily be campy to another. But I'm of the opinion that many Godzilla films in the Showa series were made to be fun and campy. I mean did they not think, even in the 60's, that having Godzilla dance on planet X or cover his "private parts" during Ghidorah's attacks was silly? Toho made many of the movies fun. But fun isn't universal. It's different entertainment for different people. Different strokes...

[GotengoXGodzilla]

Well, after a quick search, camp (as a style) is "when something is appealing or humorous because of its ridiculousness to the viewer".

If that's the case, I can think of just three moments in the Showa series that fall into that category: Godzilla's dance in Invasion Of The Astro-Monster, Godzilla flying in Godzilla vs. Hedorah and Godzilla sliding on his tail in Godzilla vs. Megalon. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the Showa series does not fall into that category.

It may seem like there are other moments like that in the Showa series, like Godzilla and Ebirah playing volleyball with a rock, but that's not appealing because it's ridiculous. That's appealing because it's different, well-handled, believable and funny. And the same can be said for just about any other moment in the Showa series like that.

[GodzillaSpawn]

^I find it ridiculous. But a good ridiculous. I don't find it believable, but I'm glad it's there and would not have it any other way. And that's my point. Campy (and its connotation) means something differently to others it seems.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

^I find it ridiculous. But a good ridiculous. I don't find it believable, but I'm glad it's there and would not have it any other way. And that's my point. Campy (and its connotation) means something differently to others it seems.

Of course it's believable. A monster in the water that has no range attacks fighting a monster on land. It makes sense that the water monster would use its surroundings to attack the land monster, and that both monsters would do whatever it took to stop from being attacked or from getting hurt. Throwing a rock around is a logical way to attack another monster from a long distance if the monster doesn't have beams or missiles. And it's logical that Godzilla would try to hit the same rock back at Ebirah if he could help it.

And for that very same reason, I don't see how that could be campy. It's funny yet makes sense for how two monsters would attack one another. Seriously, there's a difference between "funny" and "ridiculous".

[Shōbijin]

I love camp, even more than when I was younger.
The showa era is just honest fun, no pretense about being edgy or scientific accurate.
The first movie was the perfect dark serious monster movie and GRA proved how boring it can get just to repeat it without any inspiration.

Today every movie director brags with how realistic and serious his 150 million dollar movie about a Hasbro toy-line is and in the next scene you see robots jumping over buildings, navy ships getting destroyed by bionic tentacles and you wonder; "Why are they even pretending to be honest with such statements?", just accept the fun and ridiculousness for the sake of it!

[GodzillaSpawn]

^I find it ridiculous. But a good ridiculous. I don't find it believable, but I'm glad it's there and would not have it any other way. And that's my point. Campy (and its connotation) means something differently to others it seems.

Of course it's believable. A monster in the water that has no range attacks fighting a monster on land. It makes sense that the water monster would use its surroundings to attack the land monster, and that both monsters would do whatever it took to stop from being attacked or from getting hurt. Throwing a rock around is a logical way to attack another monster from a long distance if the monster doesn't have beams or missiles. And it's logical that Godzilla would try to hit the same rock back at Ebirah if he could help it.

And for that very same reason, I don't see how that could be campy. It's funny yet makes sense for how two monsters would attack one another. Seriously, there's a difference between "funny" and "ridiculous".

If you say so. You'll have a rock bounce off of Godzilla's face or off his shoulder and roll off him and yet it's somehow flying back towards Ebirah at a perfect zip-line angle for him to "return the serve." Same thing in Ghidrah, half the time it was buncing off Godzilla and angling past him and somehow ends up flying back at Rodan. That is campy--it's ridiculous, unbelievable and logically shouldn't happen like that. Godzilla's tail-slide kick is campy. As well as his flying using his atomic ray in my opinion. Gigan's happy dance. Jet Jaguar growing and shrinking. Titanosaurus' uppercuts. Angilas spike attacks, Gorosaurus standing on his tail, it's all fun but also defies gravity and perhaps that can make a person feel like it's campy. Underwater cults praying to a giant beetle monster might do it for others, who knows? Islands where all these monsters live like one big family? The tiny Mothra fairies in themselves are the icing on the cake for people I know lol. Or again, it can be quite as literal as seeing strings attached to the flying monsters, or wheels underneath the caterpillar Mothra.

You said that you are an aspiring film critic, right? Seriously, if that happened in a serious movie, say Jurassic Park, and two dinosaurs starting playing volleyball with a rock, it wouldn't be funny in a good way. Everybody would be like what the **** is going on?

And maybe, just maybe, that for alot of these people who consider Godzilla movies campy simply by nature. It has alot to do with the fact that it's about a dinosaur who survived extinction for 65 million years only to be mutated by a nuclear bomb and turned into a horrific monster with superpowers. I mean he has regeneration, atomic ray, he can turn himself into a magnet, fly apparently. Its like superheroes. Chris Nolan didnt want any such perceptions of his Batman films, so he created a realistic universe for his hero to be more relatable to the audiences. They tried that with Godzilla '98, and maybe had it not been named Godzilla, it would have faired better.

It's not just a sci-fi thing. Terminator, Predator or Alien aren't campy in my opinion. Those I would say are somewhat believable and are serious films. I don't even think it's a fantasy thing, hell, Pan's Labyrinth is far from campy despite having fairies and other strange creatures. But then again, they have the advantage of atleast looking realistic on-screen, which Godzilla films in the Showa series often do not have. But I think when you have something as far off from the realm of reality (you are not going to tell me Godzilla is realistic are you?) as Godzilla, the seriousness of the films and how things like SFX are handled can be key attributes. And let's not forget, often times these films are poorly dubbed outside of Japan, and frankly can sound so corny that you literally laugh at the lack of effort, which I think plays a big role because often times Godzilla films are stereotyped with the poor dubbing imitations and jokes with the lips not moving to the words. We've all seen it.

Guillermo Del Toro (if I spelled that right) has a new giant monster/robot movie called Pacific Rim coming out. How he handles this and presents it to the audience will play a big factor. He knows how to keep things serious and not cheesy so it shouldn't be campy. If the new Godzilla movie is written in a serious fashion, even with a completely unrealistic plot, and doesn't do the things that often are perceived as aimed at children, then it won't be campy. If you can see his zipper, or he's shaking hands with other monsters, waving to humans, or giving peace signs, holding an ice cream cone with his tail, taking pictures of himself at the red light cameras, or something along those lines, it will be seen as campy whether you find it believable or not.

[GotengoXGodzilla]

You'll have a rock bounce off of Godzilla's face or off his shoulder and roll off him and yet it's somehow flying back towards Ebirah at a perfect zip-line angle for him to "return the serve."

Suspension of disbelief kicks in there. Just don't question that part.

That is campy--it's ridiculous, unbelievable and logically shouldn't happen like that.

How is two monsters fighting logically with rocks both "ridiculous" and "unbelievable"? Because I don't see it. You can apply logic to how Godzilla and Ebirah are fighting and have it make sense. Same with Godzilla and Rodan fighting one another with rocks. Just because the rock goes off a weird angle yet somehow still hits the target doesn't mean it's suddenly campy. It just means that the filmmakers didn't have a lot of time to shot that scene and couldn't redo shots because of how strict Toho is their time tables.

Titanosaurus' uppercuts

Titanosaurus never uppercutted. And even if he did, that's not ridiculous. He's just fighting a target to the best of his ability.

Gorosaurus standing on his tail

Gorosaurus doesn't stand on his tail. He jumps up in the air, and then kicks while he's still in the air. It's called a Kangaroo Kick.

it's all fun but also defies gravity

Again, suspension of disbelief. If it weren't for that, kaiju like Godzilla wouldn't be able to exist. If you really apply the laws of gravity to kaiju, every single one of them would be crushed underneath their own weight and could never even walk around, let alone fight other monsters. All monsters defy gravity just by walking around. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to believe they could do this, along with believing Titanosaurus can uppercut, Anguirus can use his spikes as an attack and Gorosaurus can Kangaroo kick something.

Underwater cults praying to a giant beetle monster might do it for others, who knows?

UnderGROUND cults, not underwater cults.

Islands where all these monsters live like one big family? The tiny Mothra fairies in themselves are the icing on the cake for people I know lol. Or again, it can be quite as literal as seeing strings attached to the flying monsters, or wheels underneath the caterpillar Mothra.

*sigh*

You can apply suspension of disbelief to every piece of fiction ever created. Of course there are elements that won't always make sense, but you have to accept that this isn't meant to be real. There's a reason this is all called "fiction". And when working with fiction, suspension of disbelief always applies.

You said that you are an aspiring film critic, right? Seriously, if that happened in a serious movie, say Jurassic Park, and two dinosaurs starting playing volleyball with a rock, it wouldn't be funny in a good way. Everybody would be like what the **** is going on?

The only reason people would act that way is because something like wouldn't match the tone of the rest of the movie. Jurassic Park tries to be as scientifically accurate as possible, and then have that happen and screw everything the creators were working towards. Its fine in the Godzilla movies though, because they're not trying to be scientifically accurate. So your example really doesn't work well for this situation.

And maybe, just maybe, that for alot of these people who consider Godzilla movies campy simply by nature. It has alot to do with the fact that it's about a dinosaur who survived extinction for 65 million years only to be mutated by a nuclear bomb and turned into a horrific monster with superpowers. I mean he has regeneration, atomic ray, he can turn himself into a magnet, fly apparently.

And those would be the people who have no suspension of disbelief, and I don't see why those kind of people should even be brought up.

Its like superheroes. Chris Nolan didnt want any such perceptions of his Batman films, so he created a realistic universe for his hero to be more relatable to the audiences.

And yet there are still many things in all three of Nolan's Batman films that are unrealistic. That's going to be happen when you work in fiction.

you are not going to tell me Godzilla is realistic are you?

No, but neither are Terminators, Predators, Xenomorphs and all of the fantasy elements of Pan's Labyrinth. Again, they're all fiction. They're not real. You have to use suspension of disbelief to make them seem real.

And let's not forget, often times these films are poorly dubbed outside of Japan, and frankly can sound so corny that you literally laugh at the lack of effort, which I think plays a big role because often times Godzilla films are stereotyped with the poor dubbing imitations and jokes with the lips not moving to the words

So what? If it's that big of a problem, watch the Japanese version with English subtitles. The films should not be looked down upon simply because of what an entirely different company trying to make the foreign film more accessible to a different audience. That's not the movies fault or the filmmakers faults, so that argument falls flat.

it will be seen as campy whether you find it believable or not.

If it's believable, then it's not campy. If what is going on is logical and makes sense for the world of the film, then it's not ridiculous and therefore not campy. If you think it's ridiculous, then you're not thinking about it in the proper way.

[Biogoji]

You'll have a rock bounce off of Godzilla's face or off his shoulder and roll off him and yet it's somehow flying back towards Ebirah at a perfect zip-line angle for him to "return the serve."

Suspension of disbelief kicks in there. Just don't question that part.

That is campy--it's ridiculous, unbelievable and logically shouldn't happen like that.

How is two monsters fighting logically with rocks both "ridiculous" and "unbelievable"? Because I don't see it. You can apply logic to how Godzilla and Ebirah are fighting and have it make sense. Same with Godzilla and Rodan fighting one another with rocks. Just because the rock goes off a weird angle yet somehow still hits the target doesn't mean it's suddenly campy. It just means that the filmmakers didn't have a lot of time to shot that scene and couldn't redo shots because of how strict Toho is their time tables.

Titanosaurus' uppercuts

Titanosaurus never uppercutted. And even if he did, that's not ridiculous. He's just fighting a target to the best of his ability.

Gorosaurus standing on his tail

Gorosaurus doesn't stand on his tail. He jumps up in the air, and then kicks while he's still in the air. It's called a Kangaroo Kick.

it's all fun but also defies gravity

Again, suspension of disbelief. If it weren't for that, kaiju like Godzilla wouldn't be able to exist. If you really apply the laws of gravity to kaiju, every single one of them would be crushed underneath their own weight and could never even walk around, let alone fight other monsters. All monsters defy gravity just by walking around. It's because of suspension of disbelief that allows us to believe they could do this, along with believing Titanosaurus can uppercut, Anguirus can use his spikes as an attack and Gorosaurus can Kangaroo kick something.

Underwater cults praying to a giant beetle monster might do it for others, who knows?

UnderGROUND cults, not underwater cults.

Islands where all these monsters live like one big family? The tiny Mothra fairies in themselves are the icing on the cake for people I know lol. Or again, it can be quite as literal as seeing strings attached to the flying monsters, or wheels underneath the caterpillar Mothra.

*sigh*

You can apply suspension of disbelief to every piece of fiction ever created. Of course there are elements that won't always make sense, but you have to accept that this isn't meant to be real. There's a reason this is all called "fiction". And when working with fiction, suspension of disbelief always applies.

You said that you are an aspiring film critic, right? Seriously, if that happened in a serious movie, say Jurassic Park, and two dinosaurs starting playing volleyball with a rock, it wouldn't be funny in a good way. Everybody would be like what the **** is going on?

The only reason people would act that way is because something like wouldn't match the tone of the rest of the movie. Jurassic Park tries to be as scientifically accurate as possible, and then have that happen and screw everything the creators were working towards. Its fine in the Godzilla movies though, because they're not trying to be scientifically accurate. So your example really doesn't work well for this situation.

And maybe, just maybe, that for alot of these people who consider Godzilla movies campy simply by nature. It has alot to do with the fact that it's about a dinosaur who survived extinction for 65 million years only to be mutated by a nuclear bomb and turned into a horrific monster with superpowers. I mean he has regeneration, atomic ray, he can turn himself into a magnet, fly apparently.

And those would be the people who have no suspension of disbelief, and I don't see why those kind of people should even be brought up.

Its like superheroes. Chris Nolan didnt want any such perceptions of his Batman films, so he created a realistic universe for his hero to be more relatable to the audiences.

And yet there are still many things in all three of Nolan's Batman films that are unrealistic. That's going to be happen when you work in fiction.

you are not going to tell me Godzilla is realistic are you?

No, but neither are Terminators, Predators, Xenomorphs and all of the fantasy elements of Pan's Labyrinth. Again, they're all fiction. They're not real. You have to use suspension of disbelief to make them seem real.

And let's not forget, often times these films are poorly dubbed outside of Japan, and frankly can sound so corny that you literally laugh at the lack of effort, which I think plays a big role because often times Godzilla films are stereotyped with the poor dubbing imitations and jokes with the lips not moving to the words

So what? If it's that big of a problem, watch the Japanese version with English subtitles. The films should not be looked down upon simply because of what an entirely different company trying to make the foreign film more accessible to a different audience. That's not the movies fault or the filmmakers faults, so that argument falls flat.

it will be seen as campy whether you find it believable or not.

If it's believable, then it's not campy. If what is going on is logical and makes sense for the world of the film, then it's not ridiculous and therefore not campy. If you think it's ridiculous, then you're not thinking about it in the proper way.

I agree with everything that you have just said when you watch godzilla movies they are a good way to get away from the real world just forget about something being realistic and just have fun watching them.

[Bentley]

Realism is waaaay overrated.

[Biogoji]

Indeed

[Julia Bristow]

Realism is waaaay overrated.

Agreed, not every film has to be 100% realistic

On topic: No I don't hate the Showa series for being "campy", I like the Showa series because to me each of the films are endearing in their own way.

[Ethan]

I love the Showa era for being campy, and I feel future Godzilla films (including American ones) should follow such direction.

[Terasawa]

I don't find the Showa series to be "campy" or "cheesy". Sure, there are three or four moments overall in the series that are downright silly, like Godzilla's dance in Invasion Of The-Astro Monster, but moments like that are few and far between. Overall, the Showa series takes itself rather seriously in its approach, as well as story and characters, along with some attempts at comedy. Sometimes the comedy works great, like in Ebirah, Horror Of The Deep and Son Of Godzilla, but other times it just falls flat, like most comedic attempts in Destroy All Monsters (outside of the comedic scenes involving Minya).

I'm sorry, but I do not agree. I love the Showa films, but most of the films after 1964 are campy (and there's nothing wrong with that, IMO). Let's look at Wikipedia's definition of camp: "...an aesthetic sensibility that regards something as appealing or humorous because of its ridiculousness to the viewer." How does that not apply to most of the Showa Godzilla movies? You have Godzilla doing the jumping Shie, flying, talking to Anguirus, tail sliding, shaking hands with a robot, etc. I think the crews knew those scenes would be considered pretty ridiculous*, but at the same time very funny. Thus, they are "campy." The only Showa flicks that are not campy are the original film, GRA and GODZILLA VS. THE THING (though people could easily find them "kitschy").

*The old story goes that Honda wanted to ditch the Shie because it was too ridiculous.

For example, almost all of Alfred Hitchcock films could fall into the same category (very tense and thrilling/dramatic films, filled with plenty of attempts at comedy), and I would never say one of Hitchcock's films is "campy" or "cheesy".

Neither would I. His humor is usually very dark and related to the dark situations in his films. But you also have to consider that his films aren't about giant monsters doing boxing routines.