Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Terasawa
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

Post by Terasawa »

Vakanai wrote: Well to be fair to them, it's not like they can actually get the man himself to animate anything anymore, since he's dead.
And that’s exactly why I wonder why they’d even bother. But that’s probably just me.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Terasawa wrote:
Vakanai wrote: Well to be fair to them, it's not like they can actually get the man himself to animate anything anymore, since he's dead.
And that’s exactly why I wonder why they’d even bother. But that’s probably just me.
Because nostalgia, fandom, etc. He's dead, but to some of his fans there is value in using his unused designs. It's like getting a last little treat from a legend. Like if a singer-songwriter dies after writing a song but never getting to sing it, some fans may still want to hear her/his song sung even if from some other singer. Same thing, he can't animate the designs he made, but there's still interest in seeing the designs animated even if by someone else.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

Post by Godzilloci »

Vakanai wrote:Well to be fair to them, it's not like they can actually get the man himself to animate anything anymore, since he's dead.
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not against this project, and I'll be happy to see it, but I criticize it exactly for this reason. If Harryhausen is dead and can't bring his work to life in the way his fans want to see it, then there's really no point in trying to recreate or "recapture" his work, because it can't be recaptured. Even if they used pure stop-motion, it won't be the same. The past used to be the simply-accepted present, and when people try to recapture the past it becomes artificial because it's no longer simply-accepted, but rather glorified by people who have not truly experienced it.

I think making a film -inspired- by Harryhausen is the more sincere and creative option.
mikelcho wrote:When you say "shows and films that try to "recapture" the 80s", do you mean shows like, for example, ID's The 1980s: The Deadliest Decade?
No, more like Stranger Things, which outright mimics the cliches that were considered fresh and exciting in a different time and place. The cliches are put together well enough to make a consistently competent narrative, but the writers were going out of their way to systematically manipulate these highly specialized ideas, with a dash of contemporary sensibilities to make it more sellable and even less sincere. It doesn't help that Stranger Things puts a lot of emphasis on nerd references, '80s references, and product placement, more than the product-laden ET itself. Whenever I see projects that attempt to "recapture" something, it almost always falls flatter than the thing it's trying to copy, because they weren't the original innovators with the original contexts and the original mindsets and the original teamwork.

Haha, anyway, ramble aside, all I'm saying is it's useless trying to recapture feelings from the past in the form of a simulation of the past.

Edit:
Because nostalgia, fandom, etc. He's dead, but to some of his fans there is value in using his unused designs.
I'm glad you acknowledge that this is just a fun thing some fans might enjoy, rather than try to defend it as an absolute necessity to the fandom. I think fandoms are generally shallow and hyper-obsessed to the point of difficulty appreciating things beyond the immediate scope of their obsessions, and I think nostalgia is too often misunderstood as movies and toys rather than the timeless feelings that were inspired by them. Nostalgia doesn't mean retreating back to old things. In the best artists nostalgia means making new things with new insights, because a mature mind looking at a youthful past will be able to appreciate that past in new ways.

What I hope to see in this movie's spirit isn't "Harryhausen is so awesome let's try to be like him!!!" but rather a fan's unique insight on Harryhausen.
Last edited by Godzilloci on Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:23 am, edited 6 times in total.

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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Godzilloci wrote:
Vakanai wrote:Well to be fair to them, it's not like they can actually get the man himself to animate anything anymore, since he's dead.
I'd like to make it clear that I'm not against this project, and I'll be happy to see it, but I criticize it exactly for this reason. If Harryhausen is dead and can't bring his work to life in the way his fans want to see it, then there's really no point in trying to recreate or "recapture" his work, because it can't be recaptured. Even if they used pure stop-motion, it won't be the same. The past used to be the simply-accepted present, and when people try to recapture the past it becomes artificial because it's no longer simply-accepted, but rather glorified by people who have not truly experienced it.

I think making a film -inspired- by Harryhausen is the more sincere and creative option.
I disagree - even if you can never recapture 100%, there is a reason to try and recapture the past. Even if it is a little artificial, it's also at least a little familiar. It still captures a certain level of nostalgia, and for some people capturing any comforting feelings of their childhood is good enough, at least for an hour or two. It isn't always about being the most sincere or creative, sometimes there's value to the shallow nostalgia punch. It gets the job done, and it's often just fun. I don't always need art, sometimes I just need something familiar and comfortable to take me away for a bit.

Mind you Harryhausen was before my time and I didn't discover his stuff till I was already an adult, and I can't speak for how this project will turn out. I'm just arguing that there is some value to the occasional nostalgia project like this.

Plus it also drums up more interest and profit sometimes than purely original efforts. Let's not forget the practical and business side to these things, as much as we may sometimes think of them as distasteful. I mean, I'm more interested in this now than I'd be if it was original.
I'm glad you acknowledge that this is just a fun thing some fans might enjoy, rather than try to defend it as an absolute necessity to the fandom. I think fandoms are generally shallow and hyper-obsessed to the point of difficulty appreciating things beyond the immediate scope of their obsessions, and I think nostalgia is too often misunderstood as movies and toys rather than the timeless feelings that were inspired by them. Nostalgia doesn't mean retreating back to old things. In the best artists nostalgia means making new things with new insights, because a mature mind looking at a youthful past will be able to appreciate that past in new ways.

What I hope to see in this movie's spirit isn't "Harryhausen is so awesome let's try to be like him!!!" but rather a fan's unique insight on Harryhausen.
I agree with you on fandoms, but disagree in thinking that's a bad thing. I'll admit to being shallow and hyper-obsessed as a fan, but that's the fun of being a fan. It's the only time you can be a bit like that, away from school or work or family or whatever. Passion. I'd like if they captured both "Harryhausen is so awesome let's be like him" and a fan's unique insight. A fun balance of both would be cool.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Shhh! The Octopus wrote:
Kaiju-King42 wrote:Stables
That's the one I want to see. Who wouldn't want to see a demigod shoveling gigantic mounds of sh*t?
Actually, according to the myth, Heracles cleaned the Augean stables by diverting two parallel rivers at the same point and let them do the job for him. However, he also cleaned the stables for hire, so it was the second of two labors that didn't count (the previous one was the killing of the Lernean Hydra and that was because he had help in doing so by Iolaus). That's why the labors were 12 instead of the original 10.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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So since this is based off on one of Ray's lost projects, is their somewhere were maybe the original script could be found? Or did it not get that far in production?
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

Post by ROMG4 »

Terasawa wrote:
Vakanai wrote: Well to be fair to them, it's not like they can actually get the man himself to animate anything anymore, since he's dead.
And that’s exactly why I wonder why they’d even bother. But that’s probably just me.
By that logic we should not have anymore films of Godzilla and Ultraman

From my view I see this as a potentially really cool tribute that could introduce new fans to Ray-Harryhausen's movies and the art of stop-motion
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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ROMG4 wrote:By that logic we should not have anymore films of Godzilla and Ultraman
The difference is most Godzilla filmmakers don't try to copy or mimic their predecessors so obviously. Godzilla films tend to look and feel different from each other, and even the ones that try to revive older elements or styles still try new things with them.

As for Ultraman, well... I know this forum is full of Ultra-fans, and I mean no disrespect, but I find most of the Ultraman shows repetitive and monotonous, so it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if they took a break. I recognize the differences between Seven and Ace and Taro, and I even appreciate some of their details like how Ace took inspiration from horror films, but in the end the majority of them follow more formulas than Godzilla movies do, even with all the weird monsters.
From my view I see this as a potentially really cool tribute that could introduce new fans to Ray-Harryhausen's movies and the art of stop-motion
That's exactly what it is, and I'm fine with that and look forward it. But it doesn't change the fact that people who try to mimic others usually don't understand the subtle elements of the work they're mimicking. Inspiration can lead to all kinds of new possibilities, but mimicry is usually just the same thing as before but with less style and nuance. It's why a lot of people disdain animated films that obviously try to be Disney and fail.

My expectation is an entertaining flick that doesn't have much depth to it because the filmmakers tried too hard to mimic only the external factors of Harryhausen, and even then get it partially wrong.

But I kinda hope they will blow my mind with something that is either inspired but original, or remarkably close to Harryhausen (and the latter is unlikely, given most films and shows that try so hard to be like other films or shows).
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Pretty much what Godzilloci said, but no, that's not the same logic. At all.

My point is that what I find most appealing about Harryhausen's films is his artistry, from his design work to his animation and everything in between. That's mostly lost on a tribute made by other people because... well, Ray is no longer with us and can't work on it. Yeah, OK, we can see some of his unused designs come to life on the screen, but you're not going to be seeing his animation or his staging. It's going to be someone else trying to replicate his style, which is a huge turn-off for me.

The difference with the Godzilla movies or Ultra series is that their appeal doesn't lie in the work of one or even a small group of artists.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

Post by Vakanai »

Godzilloci wrote:
ROMG4 wrote:By that logic we should not have anymore films of Godzilla and Ultraman
The difference is most Godzilla filmmakers don't try to copy or mimic their predecessors so obviously. Godzilla films tend to look and feel different from each other, and even the ones that try to revive older elements or styles still try new things with them.

As for Ultraman, well... I know this forum is full of Ultra-fans, and I mean no disrespect, but I find most of the Ultraman shows repetitive and monotonous, so it wouldn't be the end of the world for me if they took a break. I recognize the differences between Seven and Ace and Taro, and I even appreciate some of their details like how Ace took inspiration from horror films, but in the end the majority of them follow more formulas than Godzilla movies do, even with all the weird monsters.
From my view I see this as a potentially really cool tribute that could introduce new fans to Ray-Harryhausen's movies and the art of stop-motion
That's exactly what it is, and I'm fine with that and look forward it. But it doesn't change the fact that people who try to mimic others usually don't understand the subtle elements of the work they're mimicking. Inspiration can lead to all kinds of new possibilities, but mimicry is usually just the same thing as before but with less style and nuance. It's why a lot of people disdain animated films that obviously try to be Disney and fail.

My expectation is an entertaining flick that doesn't have much depth to it because the filmmakers tried too hard to mimic only the external factors of Harryhausen, and even then get it partially wrong.

But I kinda hope they will blow my mind with something that is either inspired but original, or remarkably close to Harryhausen (and the latter is unlikely, given most films and shows that try so hard to be like other films or shows).
But...does that matter? Does it matter if they don't understand the subtle elements of what they're making? Does it matter if they have less style and nuance, that they get it partially wrong? Is it so bad if they don't blow your mind with something inspired or original? There's still value in the expected entertaining flick without to much depth to them, to paraphrase you. I mean, most of Hollywood thrives on films like that, without them the industry might not exist.
Terasawa wrote:Pretty much what Godzilloci said, but no, that's not the same logic. At all.

My point is that what I find most appealing about Harryhausen's films is his artistry, from his design work to his animation and everything in between. That's mostly lost on a tribute made by other people because... well, Ray is no longer with us and can't work on it. Yeah, OK, we can see some of his unused designs come to life on the screen, but you're not going to be seeing his animation or his staging. It's going to be someone else trying to replicate his style, which is a huge turn-off for me.

The difference with the Godzilla movies or Ultra series is that their appeal doesn't lie in the work of one or even a small group of artists.
Which is a huge turn off for you yes - but can you concede that for some people that's the thing they want to see, that your turn off is their turn on? People have different things they want, and some people I think want something like this.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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I’ve never said it shouldn’t happen, nor am I trying to stop the project. I just have zero interest in it for the reasons I’ve stated.

I’m here to relate my opinion. Of course other people feel differently, but I can’t really speak for them...

Odd choice of words, anyway, since there’s nothing for me to concede here.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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Terasawa wrote:I’ve never said it shouldn’t happen, nor am I trying to stop the project. I just have zero interest in it for the reasons I’ve stated.

I’m here to relate my opinion. Of course other people feel differently, but I can’t really speak for them...

Odd choice of words, anyway, since there’s nothing for me to concede here.
Gosh darn it, you should concede that other people having opinions that differ from yours means that you were wrong to ever express your opinions in the first place!
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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I just meant it felt too much like people were stating their opinions more like absolutes than opinions in how they were writing. I get it, my opinion about you guys treating your opinions as fact was wrong. I concede defeat.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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How's it going on this film? Any progress?

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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

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mikelcho wrote: Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:07 pm How's it going on this film? Any progress?
Was this thing Even offically greenlit? I don't think it actually was.
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Re: Force of the Trojans. Harryhausen's Unused Creatures Coming to Life

Post by Cryptid_Liker »

I think we'll have flying cars by the time anything about this film is made public.
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